My New Berthier 1916 Carbine

Today was the first gun show I've had an opportunity to go to in quite a while. I also had my wife's approval to spend up to $200 which while admittedly isn't a lot, I didn't have high expectations for the show and was ideally hoping to find a Carcano of some sort. (I also stuck an extra $100 in the wallet just in case).

Walked through the entire show. Not much catching my eye other than an overpriced Type I Japanese which is one I'm missing. It was not on my short list however so I spent a good bit of time going over it. He had it marked at $295, but after I looked at it a bit he said he'd take $220 out the door. I don't carry my books with me so I told him I'd think about it and went on the long walk to the car. Of course Peterson's doesn't show a photo of the entire rifle and they list a "good" rifle at $200 and I'm debating if this is "good" or not. I go back and look at it again, everything looks ok but not great. The bore is solid, not bright but not dark either and no pitting. Everything works. The stock joint was filled in at some point and the front band was loose. He drops it down to $200 and then I notice the bolt handle. It has a slight bend to it. So I take another long walk to the car and fortunately I took "Italy's Battle Rifle" along and it had full photos and data in it. The bolt handle isn't supposed to be bent. I figure it is original but someone bent down the last inch. I go back again and look the bolt over closely trying to determine the difficulty of bending it back. The is a notch on the bottom where the bend starts and I'm thinking this thing could snap off at that notch. So reluctantly I bow out. I'm feeling good though, figure I made a good decision, another rifle will come along so I head out to the car, just exit the show, walk down the hallway a bit and notice a guy behind me with two rifles. I turn and yell, "you buying or selling" His wife stops him and he comes back. He's selling, first rifle is a Berthier carbine, one that is on my short list. It looks pretty good too, no major rust, no major stock defects, number match on the barrel, trigger guard and stock but unfortunately not the bolt. I check the bore, it's SHINY and the lands and grooves are crisp at the muzzle. I've never seen one that wasn't dark and pitted. He wants $150 for it, so it came home with me.

I know that's a long story but it's just to emphasize that patience once again paid off. I could have left there with that Type I that I wouldn't have been happy with and the luck of the timing got me this one. 1 minute in either direction of me leaving that show and I
wouldn't have run into the guy.

The rifle operates very smoothly, appears to be complete in all major parts. It was manufactured in 1917 and this is stamped on the barrel under the hand guard and the stock impression which is there but a bit faint. I've done nothing to it other than wipe it with a bit of linseed oil. Will probably work on cleaning the rust off tomorrow. Won't take long, there isn't much. Under the hand guard is rust free but there is some old very minor pitting where the guard contacted the metal.

The one issue is that the cleaning rod is missing and the groove for it was neatly filled in with wood. Researching this seems to indicate it's relatively common with these so was probably arsenal done at some point as these were used by police units into the 1960's. No import mark on it.

It needs a sling, a new butt plate wouldn't hurt as this is the only beat up thing on it. And if the consensus is re-installing a cleaning rod, I need one of them too.

I've located the 5 shot clips and ammo for it so those are not an issue.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8153-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8154-1.jpg

Very nice! I can attest to having patience paying off. Last gun show I went too I was in a similar situation where nothing was really catching my eye, and the last tabe before the door held a beautiful all matching '43 Savage Lee-Enfield that followed me home for $250

In any event great find! I've always liked those Berthier carbines, and for $150 you practically stole it :p

Stock cartouche reads Novembre 1917. They went to so much trouble to fill in the cleaning rod groove I think I'll leave it alone. It was done at the arsenals between the wars. I got it disassembled last evening, nothing surprising under the wood. I had no luck locating a source for original slings so if anyone knows one, I'd appreciate a point of contact. I did find repro slings but I'd rather not go that direction with this.

Nice rifle, and a great price. One of these is on my list as well. The only one I've found close the price you quote was so beat up I would have been afraid to fire it.

IMA used to have original slings - I got one there.

A good buy Aragorn - that looks better than any Berthier I have seen over here. But be warned - if you fire original ammo loaded with the "Balle D", it is real shoulder-banging stuff.

It looks like Privi or Fiocchi is the only ammo I'll have access to. I know where there is some surplus but it's a two hour drive from here and I'm not making that run for 40 rounds of ammo. As it stands now, I have one round for it in my collection of cartridges. If the big emergency happens, I'll be grabbing something else. I haven't physically put them together yet so I don't know if this is smaller than my Carcano cavalry carbine or not. The barrel and action out of the stock looks tiny.

The Prvi is stout stuff. Good wintertime shooter. I like the oddball front sights on these carbines. Just use the tiny notch for precision work, and the big blade for fast aquistion.

My 1892 carbine also has the channel filled in. All part of Post WWI rebuilds.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff028-1.jpg

I'd guess the Berthiers are my favorite bolt action carbines. Just as long there's no requirement to put a lot of rounds downrange!

I've stripped and cleaned it and looked it over closely and haven't found any issues with it. It's stamped with the "N" on both barrel and receiver so should be good to go with modern ammo. Anything in particular I should look for before shooting it?

I did notice the firing pin seems to stick out on this more so than other rifles I have but looked at some photos and it appears that is the way it is supposed to be, maybe something about recessed primers to prevent them going off in the Lebel tubes? It is longer than my Carcano cavalry carbine by three or four inches.

Four clips are on order from Numerich, they had the best price I could find.

The sights are difficult for me to use on the lowest setting of 200 meters. Everything just seems to blend together with that groove in the hand guard. On the 400 meter setting, everything looks great.

100 yard zero sight picture:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0551-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff016-1.jpg

Unfortunately, that isn't the view I see. I see a big blur. It looks like they built up the channel in the hand guard with a thin strip which makes it harder to see the sights. It may have been a repair for a small crack. I can't really tell. I can see that view on the higher settings. It's unusual but seems effective.

I can see the sights on the lowest setting but it's difficult. May be my eyes. I've never been strong with open sights and my eyes have been getting worse with near vision for the last two years.

Is this the correct sling for my rifle?

Military Antiques, Military Collectibles and Militaria French Leather Rifle Sling: WW1 WW2 Era IMA-USA.COM

I can't tell if the end is correct for fitting through the ring. They are supposed to narrow somewhat which this appears to do but not much. I also understand the carbines had a slightly shorter sling. Can't tell a lot from the photos.

Spent the day cleaning and oiling. That sight picture was really bothering me so I removed the veneer layer of wood that someone installed in the hand guard groove and it is a lot better now. I'm not sure why it was in there in the first place, the groove didn't have any major damage, one deep "ding" but nothing that leads me to believe it was broken at any time. The built up wood was obscuring the rear sight when it was in it's lowest position.

The sling is indeed a French Berthier sling. Whether the length is suitable - you can only try it out!

As to the vision thing - you need shooting glasses!. Not glasses for driving (they are adjusted for too distant objects) or reading (adjusted too close) but for seeing the foresight clearly (about 1 yard distance). You will never see backsight AND foresight AND target clearly, so don't try to square the optical circle. Get shooting glasses AND use an add-on (to the glasses, not the rifle!) variable iris aperture which will go down to about 1mm.

That means spending some money. You will save it over the next season in the ammo that you will no longer be wasting!

Patrick,

I think my vision is more complex than that. I'm nearly blind without glasses. My focus point is about six inches. Up until two years ago, my eyes were fine for shooting. I have since lost my near vision as well so while I can see distance fine corrected, I either need to shift my glasses way down my nose or take them off for near work. I have an area of about six inches to 16 inches which they just don't focus anymore. I can see to read just fine with some adjustments. I am borderline "needing" bifocals. I can function fine without them but there are a few areas where they may or may not work, not sure. Shooting is one. The rear sight falls into that range that I no longer see well.

The issue with the Berthier was unrelated to that. They installed a 1/16th thick piece of veneer which lined the entire groove on the handguard and it was partially obscuring the rear sight. I can actually see the sights on this rifle fairly well due to the distance of the rear sight from my eye.

A friend of mine suggested a monocle type araingement which would fit over my shooting eye. I forget what he called it but it would be fine for target shooting but not for hunting.

Cabela's did not have 8mm Lebel in stock so it will not be traveling to the range this afternoon with my hunting rifles. I did find the one cartridge I have, a Remington.

Sling and a box of ammo are on order. I can't believe it but I actually got Black Friday savings on both. IMA ran a 10% off everything on Friday and Shoppers Guide had free shipping which on ammo can pile on pretty fast. Saved me $14 on shipping charges. I bought two boxes of Swiss Surplus at the same time. My clips came yesterday and I spent a few minutes cleaning them up today. Very good condition, no rust at all.

Ammo came yesterday and sling came today. Now if I can just find a bayonet.

The sling appears to be the correct length and is in good used condition. Matches the condition of the rifle well.

Question on the clips however. I've tried two of them without putting them loaded into the rifle. The cartridges at the top and bottom have a tendency to want to fall out, not completely but partially. Is this something that is corrected when the loaded clips are in the rifle or is it a sign the clips are worn out?

Probably the clips are just a little "tired". Ought not be a problem when in the rifle, though. But the best check would be to load the clips with old milsurp ammo. The new ammo might have slightly undersized dimensions somewhere.

It's Privi ammo. I don't really want to put the clips in the rifle here at the house so it'll have to wait till I can take it to the range. The clips look real good but I understand the "tired".