just bought a P14 - finally

Hi

kind of new to the forum - at least never posted so far.
Own a few Enfields and others, finally bought "the missing link" - a P14.

Still am somewhat confused about the stages of the furniture.

This one has "Winchester" markings all over it, still has the front (and back) volley sight
but the hand grooves that were supposed to come without the volley sight after refurbishing...
Also don't know about the "J 3"

Have a look and maybe shed some light on this, please. I also read about the "star" (not asterisk MK1*) somewhere on this forum, but I don't remember right anymore.

Also - how can I determine if the front volley sight is a reproduction, or original?

Serial number is 169xxx BTW.

Thanks

Attachment 38503Attachment 38502Attachment 38501

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Originally Posted by Iosens

Still am somewhat confused about the stages of the furniture. This one has "Winchester" markings all over it, still has the front (and back) volley sight but the hand grooves that were supposed to come without the volley sight after refurbishing...

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To clear up the confusion: you seem to have a perfectly correct stock with volley sights, and therefore the shorter grasping groove. Be glad! You have something rare.

You may have been thinking of the longer groove that was applied when later stocks were made without provision for the volley sights. And the 5-pointed star in a circle is not the Weedon repair star - that was in fact an asterisk, or 6-pointed star, usually applied on the bottom of the stock.

An unaltered Winchester P14 with volley sights. Don't worry - be happy! Even gloat a bit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iosens

Have a look and maybe shed some light on this, please. I also read about the "star" (not asterisk MK1*) somewhere on this forum, but I don't remember right anymore.

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Welcome to the forum, to the biggest conglomeration of serious milsurp knowhow on this planet!

I now suggest that you have a good read around the forum - it's all in there somewhere, and I am going to bed!

Thanks Patrick

That DOES make me happy - I really was not sure what I got when I bought it - but I definitely wanted the front volley intact.

I am still somewhat confused though: I thought that the asterisk like seen on the wood with the mysterious "J 3" (what's that?) was the "improvement mark" i.e. MK 1*.
And if asterisk on the wood is the Weedon star, why are the sights still there?
I searched around and could not come up with a picture of the "Weedon star", can you post one?


Unfortunately I do not find any "Patt 14" on the stock maybe it got sanded at some time. And obviously the disk has been removed.

I am also still not sure about the line of furniture:

Oldest : "Fat boy with no groves and the diagonal bulge between volley sight and action"
Next: " Volley sight and short grooves" like mine.
Newest: " Long groves no volley sight"
???

I have seen nice tables with serial numbers and dates for my No4 - is there anything like it for the P14?

Can you give me a price range of what this gun should run for?

part of your confusion lies in that 'oldest'-'newer'-'newest' breakdown , the 'fatboy' stock was attributed to eddystone , one of the three mfgrs [also remington & winchester] producing these simultaneously , each made there own and marked them , they did not interchange parts , production was fairly short ....once contracts were fullfilled the plants changed over to model 1917 rifles for US contracts ,

there was a replacement stock made in scotland for wheedon repair services without the volley sight dial position , but not all needed replacement , those that did not had their dial arm removed [and the rear arm as well ] were suposed to have the post/mount for the dial ground , be aware not all went through the service - yours [and mine] seem to be ones that escaped it ,

the mkI* designation had to do with a revision to the original bolt head locking lugs which were found to be lacking , very few mkI rifles are out there most all are mkI*

Dear Iosens, please do not be offended, but you need to get some P14 knowhow before you get more confused by mixing up fragmentary information. "Fat boy" stocks were early Eddystones, not Winchesters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iosens

I have seen nice tables with serial numbers and dates for my No4 - is there anything like it for the P14?

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Alas, no!

You urgently need "The Pattern 1914 and US Model 1917 Rifles" by Charles R. Stratton, from North Cape Publications, ISBN-882391-29-2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iosens

And if asterisk on the wood is the Weedon star, why are the sights still there?

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Probably because there is no asterisk on the wood of your rifle. It has never been Weedoned or FTRed. Now please make a photo of the backsight and post it here, so that we can all see if you've hit the jackpot - and if you had the book, you would know what that is. A photo of the receiver ring would also be informative.

So while I am sleeping, you have got time to order that book !!!

the grasping grooves differed between remington and winchester , but all were made simultaneously in the contract period , perhaps this will help - this is the eddystone fatboy stock


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lings006-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lings001-1.jpg

Hi Patrick

Thanks again, Patrick and A square 10,

you are absolutely right, my "wisdom" is purely extracted though tidbits from forums and other internet sources, it's hard to
put the complete image together.
I did not get - until now - that the fatboy was only the Eddystone creed.

Thanks for the book, tip - I will get this one, I already have the Enfield book from teh same series I noted.

I will take some more pictures, but it might take me a day or two.

iosens, congrats on your new p14 looks good but when you get time shoot us some more pics.--charles

So
here are some more pics, I guess all looks good, except for the non-matching and sanded stock.
Bolt matching, bolt lugs short (0.62 ''), grasping grooves asymmetric.
Still do not understand the " * J 3 " below the grip. (see first post). Could not find any numbers or stars except what you see here.
(Happy to do a full shot if you like, too. Weather was just crappy here today.)

Looking forward to your comments.
I don't dare to take the furniture off yet to see more, never done it.

Attachment 38600Attachment 38599Attachment 38601Attachment 38602Attachment 38603Attachment 38604

Well it looks to me as if you have a P14 MkI*.
The star is the upgrade mark from the MkI, and the left locking lug should therefore be 0.725" long.
But you write that it is 0.62(5) long, which is the length of the original MkI.
Something is not right here - could you please check the bolt lug again?

The stock is clearly non-original, and appears to have been re-used more than once.

P.S: please note that the battered condition of the front barrel band, also on the inside edge, does not match the smooth edges and face of the fore-end. The band has come off a different rifle to the stock.

There also appear to be markings on the underneath of the barrel* - visible in the same photo (4th in your post). Something that ends in PA ?? A photo of these markings would be useful, as they might give a clue as to re-import or arsenal makeover.

The surface of the rear volley-sight (the fold-down peep sight on the left is much smoother than on the neighboring parts, such as the bolt catch. Because of the relatively exposed position, I would expect at least the same amount of wear here.

I think this is a rifle that has been privately "upgraded" by the fitting of a stock with volley sights. And not all components came from the same donor rifle!

*The mirror-smooth finish on the barrel at this point is also inconsistent with the beaten-up barrel band.

I have a Winchester P14 that came from Springfield Sporters years ago with a plain stock. I wonder if this is one of those rifles and was "upgraded".


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Thanks Patrick

I agree with you, the stock is not original for sure.
I was wondering about the rear volley sight also.

But the bolt lug is short. Which star is the MK 1* start now, the one in the circle or the one on the bottom of the stock ?
Also do you know something about the J3?

I also do not understand what you mean with the mark on the front barrel band?

Last not least I have added the import marks from the barrel.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iosens

I also do not understand what you mean with the mark on the front barrel band?

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Perhaps I should have written "nose cap" - the thing with the bayonet lug! It has not just scratches - but rather gouge marks - on the outside AND on the inside, right next to the wood, which does not show any such marks. This is possibly the strongest indication that parts do not match - not just inconsistent degrees of wear, but scratches that stop suddenly and do not continue onto the neighboring component.

Take a very close look at the "4-5 o'clock2 area:
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....058267&thumb=1

You can see the marks on the inside of the nose cap. I do not see how those marks could have been made with the nosecap still on that wood. Ergo, the wood and the nosecap have different origins.


The volley peepsight is also less worn than neighboring components:
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....058273&thumb=1

Now to the star on the bolt handle:
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....058253&thumb=1
According to That Book Which You Have Now Ordered (yes?) this must be the star mark for an upgrade from MKI to MkI*. But if the left-hand bolt lug is the shorter (0.62") version, then it can't be. I am puzzled, and I hope someone else has an explanation.

If it is the "star" upgrade, then there ought to be a star on the receiver ring, above the number, in fact usually fairly central, but one cannot tell from the photo - please check.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....058255&thumb=1
However, there is a star on the reciver, just not in the usual position

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....879822&thumb=1

Hence my conclusion that a) the rifle has been asembled from various "donors" b) there is something odd about the star business.

One check you could perform, if you know someone who has a P14 with the long bolt lug, is to try a bolt with the long lug in your rifle.
1) If the long-lug bolt can be closed, the rifle is a MkI* .
2) If the bolt cannot be closed, then the rifle is not a MkI*, and the stars on the metalwork must mean something else (but what?).

I think I'm going to add to the confusion. My Winchester has the same short lug. Attachment 38621Attachment 38622Attachment 38623
Numbers match.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

I think I'm going to add to the confusion. My Winchester has the same short lug.

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No confusion, unless your Winchester also has the star mark on the bolt!

Try the same test I suggested in the previous post.

It's a Springfield Sporters import from the 1980's. Most likely "restored" at some point by another owner. My very first P-14 was from that batch of rifles. It was an Eddystone and had been through FTR at Weedon.

Thanks for all your comments, may I summarize

I 100% agree that the stock does not fit to the metal. And the rear volley sight might have been added later. ( I might have to "wear" it a bit... ;-) )

But: the bolt, action and sight do fit to each other - number wise.

The mystery are the stars (and there is no other star on the receiver ring and the blueing
looks good and smooth there ( no filing, or so) and the bolt lug.

I do have a acquaintance with a P14, but I do have no idea what kind. Might be a while until I see him though.

So, what value do I have now??

Is there any info in the stamping below the barrel?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iosens

Is there any info in the stamping below the barrel?

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Well it must mean something. But since the marks probably refer to a re-import into the USA, I won't even attempt to guess! It's time for soneone in the US to make a contribution!

The markings between the upper band and the foresight are the Springfield Sporters import marks. Like Brian said they came in the country in the '80's.
Incidentally if you look under the lower hand guard you'll see the date of the barrel.


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So... how much would you pay for this???

I took off the rear volley sight and - surprise, surprise - it came from a Remington rifle - at least it has a "R" on it.
The spring has a "W".

I removed the rear volley, and, surprise surprise, the rear volley has a "R" on it, while the spring has a "W".
At some time I will take off the front one too and see where this came from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

No confusion, unless your Winchester also has the star mark on the bolt!

Try the same test I suggested in the previous post.

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Yes, Patrick it has a star on the bolt like Losens rifle.


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Then the star business is perhaps not as simple as it says in the books?

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iosens

I removed the rear volley, and, surprise surprise, the rear volley has a "R" on it, while the spring has a "W".

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OK, so it's a mixmaster. Personally, I wouldn't care if I had a P14 that shoots well.

Right - I do not care too much, I did not expect it to be a matched rifle when I bought it.

Still - if somebody wants to trade a "W" rear volley sight with for my "R", please come forward!

I like it, I think it's a nice rifle. I was actually thinking about getting another stock with volley sights for mine.


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The stock grain on your rifle is beautiful! Enjoy!

Gents,
this has been an interesting read as I have had a hankering for a P14 after shooting one that I stripped, cleaned and resurrected from the scrap heap whilst on a ToD in AGH last year.
That old girl, a Remington made piece, didn't look the best but had no issues with hitting the block target at 800M shooting off-hand. Kinda sunk the deal for wanting to add one to the 303 family!
Unfortunately here in Australia a P14 is not going to be cheap. That said though I did look at one yesterday which the salesman thought was going for $350, but would need to speak to the boss first. The rifle is an Eddystone with the (as I've now learnt) characteristic 'fatboy' stock. If it goes through and the rifle comes home to my place, I'll open a new post with details for review and my edification.

Hello,
i have an eddystone made p-14 with the fatboy stock that has the star (asterik) on the receiver ring and the extractor. It has a serial number stamped then crossed out and replaced with another serial number on the bolt. It is stamped springfield sporters...etc....under the wood on the bottom of the barrel. It no longer carries the volley sights, just the front base but it has a great bore. So it's not a closet queen but it is a p-14 and i didn't give much for it. Now it's time to break out the cast bullet ammo!

Have a good one,
docbob