Is building a replica 4T a taboo?

Hey guys. I'm really heartset on building a replica 4T. I'm a young father of 2 supporting the four of us on a mechanic/operator wage. I have been collecting Canadian and commonwealth rifles and gear for a bit over a year. I have two No4 MkI's, two No1 MkIII*s and a No5 Mk1. I want a 4T in the worst way but I want to be able to shoot it a lot. I'd feel guilty shooting a real 4T more than a few times a year, and the cost is just way too much for us anytime soon. I regularly shoot my 223 out past 500m and am getting better all the time, and would love a 303 to use for long range target and gongs too.

My wife bought me a No4 MkI/3 Longbranch sporter with a basically brand new barrel on it from refurb. I really want to turn this into a clone 4T. What do you guys think?

There is a thread on here that tells you how to go about building a repro PROPERLY as opposed to the usual dealer/trader or enthusiastic amateur method of just '.....screwing a set of dodgy pad on' and also screwing it up! Everyone to his own of course but to be absolutely honest and in my very limited experience in these matters as an Armourer, I know that there are all these barrel and this that and the other gauging limits and buyers do look for the brightest shiniest bore BUT. I have always said that what you want in a snipers rifle is not all the whistles and bells, but an ACCURATE rifle. And I have told snipers that we can re-barrel a sniper rifle barrel that has failed a gauge limit but when the sniper tells you that it shoots like a dream, then so long as it passes the Armourers accuracy test you have to take his word.

Tellingly, that is JUST the criteria that has been adopted for the new L115 rifle. The bore gauge must run freely and CHS up correctly. After that, regardless of the condition, if the sniper says that it is good, then it's good!

But that is only my limited experience in these things and 2c's worth

Anyway, what this is all trying to explain is that a reasonably cheap BSA made Mk1 that is accurate to the EMER spec. should make a good start to the project

Are you prejudice against Longbranches Peter? Ha ha!

Excellent point. I do plan on trying it in restored military form before I decide. I'll do load development etc as if I were normal before I decide on this one for sure.

More so worried about the ethics behind doing this? To me as its a representative piece it being a 1/3 shouldn't hinder it.

And reading your articles has been part of my inspiration for wanting to build this as well. Sounds like it would be a fine project!

I'm in the process of putting a No32 Mk11 scope and repro mounts onto a Long Branch I got with pads. Hopefully it will shoot well. It will NOT have any T marks added to it and when sold I will be posting the serial number as a 'BITSA'.
As long as you do not try to pass it off as an original I see no problem.

I was thinking I'd brand it with my initials and a year date by the pads or on the knox or something. By the time I'm ready to move on fromn it 50 years from now someone could mistake it for a real one if I don't.

Believe me flying pig, noone will evber mistake a home grown set up for the real thing..............

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Believe me flying pig, noone will evber mistake a home grown set up for the real thing..............

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For sure, the only way they could is if they haven't done their research and the seller is super shady. I don't plan on selling it in my lifetime anyway. Kinda just want it as a novelty and fun toy.


I have another question. If when the time comes I have trouble finding a No32 repro scope or if I just can't afford it yet can I use my vintage K4 to do the mount and pad install? I do want the 'real' repro scope on this one, just a matter of money, and it takes a bit of time to get that!

I,d wait and keep looking on ebay for a original no32, regardless of what you do with it, it will always gain in value, as for the repro, the more the market gets the flooded the cheaper they become.

Flying Pig: As you are probably aware from reading Mr. Laidlers articles, it is the axis of the bracket that is collimated with the bore so it makes no difference what one inch scope you use after setting up the pads/ bracket. I set up my "replica" with a Weaver K3 which looks pretty good as I can have the turrets ahead of the bracket as with the real thing. I have since purchased a replica No.32 but may well do most of my shooting with the Weaver as I suspect its dramatically lower weight puts less stress on the pads during recoil. The replica I have has proven to be a great shooter and a lot of fun. Good luck with yours.

Ridolpho

I can't justify a real one for this project. My wife has given me the go ahead that when I get our debts caught up enough that I can get a loan to buy a real 4T of my choice. It will be a 'mostly' safe queen, coming out only on very special occasions. The repro will be the go to rifle. A real scope would ruin that.

You're right about any 1" scope but the MOST IMPORTANT THING is that the telescope you mount is collimated. That is, the optical axis of the bore mates with the optical axis of the tube. MOST IMPORTANT.............. I have seen some pure, absolute, dire crap, believe me.

Just last week a distant neighbour of mine here in Abingdon has purchased a 7.62mm Enfield - I put it no clearer than that because even I don't know what it's meant to be.......... fitted with a No32 scope. Like the rifle, I'll say 'fitted'; and leave it at that. Just taking a cursory glance at it you can see the telescope is pointing downwards. And, true to form, at 0 yards (yep, still calibrated with yards/imperial range drum......, I ask you) the graticle is just over 3/4 the way up the centre line. Oh yes, it'll drop down when you reach out to longer ranges but even then, it'll only end up where it SHOULD have been at 0!

It's simply mind boggling. I can but try...............

Ok sounds awesome. Thank you guys very much for the help. I'm very very excited to get going on it now. When I do I'll most definitely post any troubles or questions I run into.

I don't have the rifle, mount or pads in hand just yet, but I have another question already. How do you choose the exact place the pads will sit? Surely they can move ahead and back a little in their placement, was there a standard reference point to measure from or anything?

When I clean the pad area down to bare metal is it best to go a few thou wider than the area the pad will cover to allow for error?

Front pad up against the breeching up ring and the rear pad to suit. BUT, there were occasions where due to the hardening or the machining of the rear pad area would cause a problem with the front rear pad screw, a slight relaxation was permitted so the pads were moved rearwards about the width of a hacksaw blade.

Maybe a good idea might be to see if while you're doing the conversion, you couldn't borrow a friends genuine tele bracket (and scope now that I think about it.....) That way, when you do manage to acquire the real McCoy in a couple of years time, you can be fairly sure that your newly acquired original bracket will be a fairly close collimated fit onto your project rifle. The alternative to this is to take the slighly more expensive repro route and get one of the EXACT spec brackets from Roger Payne of this site. Sorry if this a bit of illegal advertising, but his brackets, with my aid and backing were trialled, tested and fitted to needy L42's during their last years in service. Most went back onto war-reserve rifles. But that's another story that'll be told one day..............................

I may just do that Peter. I don't like having regrets down the road.

I actually don't even know of anyone near by who owns an original, so that may be my best bet.

You know when they say "taboo"
It's a thing you mustn't do
but I've always found it true
(though I may be different from you)
that the more I try not to,
the more I want to do.
So rather than be blue
without a T or a 32
my advice to you
is go ahead and do...it.

Over and out.

No one could mind esp if it's revamping a sportered rifle flying pig.
The only thing I would caution is that it's quite a technical thing to do - ballsing up the pad fitting etc could spell doom in terms of accuracy, but then Peter's excellent guides should show how to do it well. You can find them by clicking on the link at the bottom of Peter's posts or here.
One word of warning - costs can in fact spiral above what you'd pay for the real thing. I seem to recall one rifle that after it was converted parts sourced etc was in excess of £2,500! If you spend too much then you're still left with what is a replica.

Good luck tho!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

You know when they say "taboo"
It's a thing you mustn't do
but I've always found it true
(though I may be different from you)
that the more I try not to,
the more I want to do.
So rather than be blue
without a T or a 32
my advice to you
is go ahead and do...it.

Over and out.

---

Don't give up your day job.:dancingbanana:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PrinzEugen

No one could mind esp if it's revamping a sportered rifle flying pig.
The only thing I would caution is that it's quite a technical thing to do - ballsing up the pad fitting etc could spell doom in terms of accuracy, but then Peter's excellent guides should show how to do it well. You can find them by clicking on the link at the bottom of Peter's posts or here.
One word of warning - costs can in fact spiral above what you'd pay for the real thing. I seem to recall one rifle that after it was converted parts sourced etc was in excess of £2,500! If you spend too much then you're still left with what is a replica.

Good luck tho!

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That's the beauty of this one so far. I paid $300 shipped for the rifle and all the parts to restore it to No4 MkI/3 stat. I was just given a smoking deal on the scope/pads/mount. After I order the cheek piece from EFD, find a repro sling and a target swivel I will be at just over $1000. If I do decide to go ahead with a transit case etc I have a friend who is a fantastic cabinet maker, so I'll recruit him. Then just a cheap repro tin etc from numrich. I probably won't go that far though, as the complete kit will be the most fun part of buying a real one.

Right now the only complete Longbranch No4T I know of is the one Marstar has listed at $10,500 CDN, so I'll be a long way from that!

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Don't give up your day job.:dancingbanana:

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For what?? :lol:

Ok guys quick update. I have almost all the bits for the rifle itself together now just missing the targety swivel and waiting for stuff to show up. Also bought a Transit chest for a No7. How much dimensionally different are they from the 4T chest? Don't plan on using this chest for this rifle in the long run but thought it would be nice to have a real milspec chest to look off of for the finer details when we build the repro.

If you're not building it yourself, a member here in Canada (BC) has made some very nice reproduction chests.

Might not be a bad idea either,any idea what he charges for one?

Wondering about the butt plate for this rifle. It was FTR'd at Faz and has a brass Faz marked plate on its LB butt that doesn't fit well at all. Were brass plates found on original LB snipers? If the plate stays with this rifle I need to re fit it. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to make it fit better or to fit a new Zemac plate if that's more proper on this LB representative piece?

I've fitted one or two (million) butt plates....... Just use a file and fit the wood to the butt plate, taking off the high spots until it is a good fit all over. The wood of the butt should JUST extend to outside the outer edge of the butt plate.

Thanks Peter sounds easy! Ha ha!

I should hopefully have a day off Sunday so I will try to post the first progress pictures then.

Here are some pictures of the rifle I plan on using for this conversion. Everything is going really well with its restoration so far, except of course the rear sight pin on this one was a real pain. I had to work it back and fourth a bunch to get it out. I taped the area under and around it but still marked the finish a bit:(. Guess I can touch it up later.

The whole rifle still had a very old dried on layer of cosmo. The magazine was loaded with it. The finish (besides my bit I marred) verges on new. The bore on this one is pristine as well, the fellow I bought it from bought it when it left the service, and only fired four shots out of it, ever. '51 dated Faz barrel, and a mixed bag of Faz and LB parts.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ee1fd9e3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8bffb89e-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cc5b7879-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b823fbaa-1.jpg

Here is how it looks now, partly restored. The Paki wood is quite oversized and very dark, but I think a shot of pink stain to it and black to the butt and cheekrest should have things pretty well matched color wise.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c2ec5e63-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9f5849b2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e694221f-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5d5a0d5d-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f611ded8-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...16a31087-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f7cc2c8b-1.jpg

There's the butt plate I was asking about earlier. I'm still thinking I want a Longbranch plate on there, the Faz plate just looks funny because of how far down in the tab recess it sits.

Total cost so far is under $1100 Canadian, including my repro scope and mount from a reputable member here in Canada, the No7's transit chest, cheek rest, sling, target swivel, all the metal bits, woodset and the base rifle. Basically all said and done I will be under $1200, all that is left is drill bits, taps, and fasteners. Unless something bad happens and it needs to be re-finished before I am happy, or I get done the the basic restoration and it shoots like a turd, in which case the hunt for another donor will be on again.

Possible range report after the weekend, depending on how much I manage to get done before then.

It sure looks better. Putting the wood back to original makes for a dramatic change. Fun project! Salt Flat

Flying Pig: I'd say the POF Mk2 forend looks pretty good. How are you planning to create the flat for the front pad? Being a Longbranch it looks like quite a bit of material will have to be removed for the installation. Are you going to have it milled or try to use files? Just curious as I may attempt one myself someday. The replica I own used a Savage MK1* which comes from the factory with a flat area close enough to the ring to place a pad with no milling or filing (gap about 3/16 inch). It looks like Israeli conversions I've seen photos of. Look forward to seeing how your project goes.

Ridolpho

I'm not too sure yet as far as milling or filing goes, have to wait until the scope, mount, and pads arrive. The plan was to file it how Peter described in his articles, but if it proves to be far too much material may have to call a friend on that one!

Is there anyone in the Grande Prairie area who has a real 4T they may be willing to let me have a look at?

Scope, mount, and pads are here. Doesn't look to bad to my naked untrained eye, guess I will see when I start mocking things up. The front pad lays down flat on the receiver, the rear looks like it might need some shaping but that's down the road.

The front pad might well lay flat on the receiver Flying pig, but it's got to lay flat on the receiver AND be parallel to the bore................. And there's only one way that you can be sure of that. Start reading the article, digest, then read again

It's been shown recently in another thread, but this photo seems appropriate here as well:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01736-1.jpg

If for no other reason to note that ALL of the finish under the pad has to come off even if you don't get it properly milled. Otherwise your soldering efforts will come to naught. And those screws won't do the job alone! No real shear resistance at all.

ETA: looking further, the incomplete old solder coverage shown here may be why it had to be done again...

Good photo too JM as it appears to show the depth of milling at the FRONT of the pad recess is greater than the depth of milling at the rear judging from the slight taper of the lower step.

Thank you both for the insight. I'll be extra careful to take my time and get it right.

I've had it suggested that I use more standard drill bits and taps than the 3.7/3mm etc ones just because the proper ones will be tough to find here and quite expensive. What has everyone used? Does anyone have a list of exactly what I will need for bits and taps, as well as screws? I also need to order screws for the cheek rest? Also wondering what size pilot hole to use for it? Also was there a special type of solder that should be used or any regular solder will do as long as its done right?

I read Peter's articles again last night and things made a lot more sense this time now that everything is here.

The drills and taps you need are as common as muck here. Just order them from the UK on Ebay or Tracey Tools by mail order, use them, do the job properly and then sell them on to someone else who wants to do the same. Cheap or what? Don't spoil the ship for a hap'orth of tar

Haha yes Sir I am a wee bit cheap. However I do want to do a nice job of this so I will order the proper tools and fasteners. Thanks for the lead.

I would get more than one tap of each size. In fact, if was doing this project I'd get one for each of the front holes. Because broken taps are no fun at all!

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Originally Posted by jmoore

I would get more than one tap of each size. In fact, if was doing this project I'd get one for each of the front holes. Because broken taps are no fun at all!

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Especially not when they are coming from the UK!



If anyone has a list of the specific drill bits, taps and fasteners I need to get to complete this conversion it would sure help me out a lot. Obviously I'll want cobalt bits or at least HSS? Same for taps I'm guessing. I haven't worked with solder much, I'm actually more nervous about that part of this than anything else, I pretty much know nothing about it other than a little bit of utility work I've done maintaining heavy equipment at work.

I am brand new to this stuff still but I'm a perfectionist with whatever I put my mind to so I'm very confident in my ability to complete it, just may take a lot more time and I may ask for a lot more help than others have.

You certainly won't need cobalt anything. The body is just bog standard 'mild' steel and cuts like a top. I say bog standard but that's not quite correct of course, but not into what we'd call quality. med carbon steel of today. Just your bog standard HSS taps dies and drills should see you through. You can always sharped drills yourself in any case

Ok perfect. Does anyone know off hand what thread the small screws, rear knob, and cheek pad screws are and their lengths?

How are you off for socks and underwear?
Go back to Peters VERY informative information on building a sniper rifle, it can be found here on this forums index, as a matter of fact nearly all the information is there........except a few clues to stop forgeries.

Apparently not as well off as I thought Muffett. I read part 3 a total of 4 times now and the paragraph where he listed the sizes and said in bold letters to read it again still didn't sink in. It did this time though, sincerest apologies all...

I have to agree with Muffer there Flying Pig............ This clone project of yours was getting bigger than Ben Hur! Any more Q's and soon it'd be worth me flying out there with the tools and gear and doing it for you!

Ha ha ha! Ya no doubt! The info was right there in more than than one place just like you guys stated. I just had to open my eyes and pay attention.

A friend here offered to teach me a couple silver solder techniques as well as a few tricks for filing to get the pads to sit right. He's no armorer or gunsmith but is a master fabricator and lifelong metal worker with a wealth of knowledge so I'm set there I think.r

Thanks again you guys. If I run into any more troubles I will post the questions and updates over in the restorers corner.