1944 Lithgow

I need the help of this forums experts. I have a 1944 Lithgow that is all matching exept the butt stock which is marked L^10 and a brass marker with a *.The reciever, barrel,nose peace, and fore stock are all marked 36662. the reciever is stamped FTR and D^D. The barrel and buy the trigger guard is stamped MA/51. The gun had alot of grease in the action and around the barrel. Question, why is there not a letter before the seriel number like my other Lithgows? Sorry I do not know how to post pictures on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Detroit-1

Sorry I do not know how to post pictures on this forum.

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Go to advanced/manage attachments. Pretty easy from there.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Go to advanced/manage attachments. Pretty easy from there.

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Sorry to me it is not easy. On other sights all I have to do is pull them from my pictures on my computer.

I will admit Detroit, that there are easier upload systems on other forums, but this one has a couple of valuable benefits when it comes to longer term usage.
Once you get the hang of it you will be right.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Once you get the hang of it you will be right.

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If I can do it you can do it. Would love to see pictures.

Detroit-1: If you check out the tutorial (which I printed off for future reference) the upload works extremely easily and you do directly access your picture files on your hard-drive. It appears to automatically compress them a bit and uploading 10 images takes very little time. Take it from Ridolpho T. Luddite- it is easy.

I just hit the "IMG" link box on photobucket and copy it to the post. Makes for big pictures, but it's easy enough.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff015-1.jpg

Never could sort the "official" way of doing it! But I don't own a computer, either. Gave the last one away years ago...

Here are some pictures.

No forum expert here but my guess is that it is a re-allocated serial number, or in other words a replacement action for an earlier rifle sometime between 1944 and 1951 when it was FTR'd but probably some time closer to the action date. Either that or they forgot to stamp a letter prefix E when it was made. Both suggestions probably very unlikely possibilities in the minds of some but I've got nothing else. It looks like a very legitimate rifle to me.

What are the markings on the wrist (right side) under the bolt handle that should tell you its story as it is it was FTR in 1951 at lithgow so no letter prefix, was probably sent from Lithgow to War Stocks hence just the * on teh butt disc.

Here is the picture.

It's a bodgy, more than likely renumbered by the people that own those horrible import/export markings.

Was that a joke?

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Originally Posted by Detroit-1

Was that a joke?

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Nah, that's Australian. But he's possibly correct. At this point either Post #10 or 12 are possible. Jovino's was known to do some put-togethers, but this isn't one of theirs. A detailed study of the individual S/Ns and other markings in the various locations and the overall build quality will provide further clues.

I don't think it's dodgy because the FTR and MA51 stamp look completely authentic and the receiver doesn't look to have been scrubbed and renumbered. What was the suggestion in post #10 actually? I don't think the butt disc has any relevance here and the stamp under the bolt handle only indicates the action manufacture date that is 1944. That's what makes this unusual. I agree closer examination of the rifle and numbers will help but the fact is this action has been through an FTR in 1951 so the serial number was applied either at that time or before but not after. It would seem unlikely to me that a new action was allocated an old serial number at the time of the FTR when the major consideration for a rifle to be considered for an FTR was a good action within specs.

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Originally Posted by Aussie48

What are the markings on the wrist (right side) under the bolt handle that should tell you its story as it is it was FTR in 1951 at lithgow so no letter prefix,

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The 1944 serial number was surely removed at some point. Mostly likely during FTR. But why? Usually they're plenty deep. I reckon it's going t otake some clarification by those more familiar with this "subspecies".

We certainly did have a method of re-numbering bodies (the what we call 'master component') according to a special register. I don't remember anything similar in Australia but then again, I didn't do Base workshop work there but there must have been a re-numbering system for the occasion when it arose. Anyone oiver there got the old EMEI's - management/small arms section handy? Anything that old in the Tech Library Son?

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Originally Posted by jmoore

The 1944 serial number was surely removed at some point. Mostly likely during FTR. But why? Usually they're plenty deep. I reckon it's going t otake some clarification by those more familiar with this "subspecies".

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Jmoore I hope they all join in soon and fill us in.

I'm not sure why Detroit hasn't posted all of his photo's but I've had a good look at the action serial number on gunboards and as good as my eyes can tell it hasn't been scrubbed or re-numbered. Without further light being shone on this subject by the experts, my bet is the action on an earlier rifle was replaced during or shortly after 1944 with the 1944 dated action and the old serial number 36662 allocated to it. Then some years later in 1951, the rifle went through a further refurbishment and was FTR'd to it's current state.

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Originally Posted by Homer

I've had a good look at the action serial number on gunboards and as good as my eyes can tell it hasn't been scrubbed or re-numbered.

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Three things working against you. Lack of high resolution detailed photos. The refinish. And the probability that the work was done well enough to eliminate a multitude of sins. Which was the whole point of the FTR. Best solution would be a set of Mk.I educated eyeballs on the subject.

Not even this level of detail (disregard the subject matter):

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff077-1.jpg


More like this level or better:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff078-1.jpg

And that was with an old "not fancy" camera.

If this was a spare '44 manufactured action, it would not have a S/N until mated with a barrel, there have been a couple of rifles posted either here or on Gunboards that had no prefix when they should.
The question is, if this action was assembled post 1945 as a complete rifle, who would make the decission as to what prefix, if any would be assigned?
If we tried to use a 1944 prefix, they were all issued, we could use F, or leave it blank, I recall something about a set allocation of numbers for new replacement receivers, clarification anyone?

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

If this was a spare '44 manufactured action, it would not have a S/N until mated with a barrel, there have been a couple of rifles posted either here or on Gunboards that had no prefix when they should.
The question is, if this action was assembled post 1945 as a complete rifle, who would make the decission as to what prefix, if any would be assigned?
If we tried to use a 1944 prefix, they were all issued, we could use F, or leave it blank, I recall something about a set allocation of numbers for new replacement receivers, clarification anyone?

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Muffer my suggestion is that the rifle underwent two major rebuilds. The first when the action was replaced, say in 1944 when it was probably mated to the original barrel serial numbered 36662 and then the second, an FTR in 1951 when the new barrel was fitted to it and numbered to the action.

I will try to get better pictures but my old camera has problems focusing that close. It is not just the barrel that has the no letter seriel number. The bolt, nose piece,and fore stock all have 36662 without the letter. The assembly number matches on both the bolt and reciever.

New bodies - the master component - were NEVER available from/through the Ordnance System as a spare part. Never, ever...... in the UK, NZ and Australia Although a part number was allocated in the VAOS lists or as part of a catalogue, as I have said in the past, these lists were a list of PARTS and not a list of AVAILABLE parts. The master component was the rifle. This didn't only affect weaponry but for other things that came under a special VAOS category of V&A for Valuable and Attractive. Other parts were Compass cases, binocular bodies, Night vision tubes (although later they did come through) Wrist watch casings and a zillion other things.

Foir example, battle damaged L1A1 rifle and MG bodies in SVn were all accounted for,m certified and a new item issued. NEVER rebodied - in my knowledge. It might have been different post 1972 but........

Your right Peter any L1A1 that was sent back for refurbishment the old number was struck out and a new number issued and stamped.
This No 1 is a weird one I suspect the only information available on the number would be from the Lithgow Museum now, strange I didn't notice the import/export marks before which still leads me to believe it was out of the Moorebank war stocks that were disposed of in the late 80's.

I'm following this thread for educational purposes- I only own one Lithgow and know next to nothing about them. Looking closely at one of the photos (right side of receiver) I see "Australia" and "JA CO..etc". Are these of any significance?

Ridolpho

I see what you're getting at Demo, but I'm in agreement with Peter, If the rifle required a new action, it would have been stripped and written off.
This is at the peak of wartime production, no shortage of rifles, had it been 1940 than that might be different.
The clue is with the buyer/distributor stamp, Detroit, can you give us shots of other marks, including proofs?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

New bodies - the master component - were NEVER available from/through the Ordnance System as a spare part. Never, ever...... in the UK, NZ and Australia Although a part number was allocated in the VAOS lists or as part of a catalogue, as I have said in the past, these lists were a list of PARTS and not a list of AVAILABLE parts. The master component was the rifle. This didn't only affect weaponry but for other things that came under a special VAOS category of V&A for Valuable and Attractive. Other parts were Compass cases, binocular bodies, Night vision tubes (although later they did come through) Wrist watch casings and a zillion other things.

Foir example, battle damaged L1A1 rifle and MG bodies in SVn were all accounted for,m certified and a new item issued. NEVER rebodied - in my knowledge. It might have been different post 1972 but........

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I used to agree with you on this Peter but somebody from NZ ( 5th Bat maybe ) has an English rifle with a Lithgow action all with matching numbers. The action and bolt have been numbered to match the barrel and nose cap. There were no barred out numbers or grind marks.
Hope he sees this thread and puts up the pictures again.

I will take the gun on Fri. to a friend who does pro. photos. I will get all the marks but I will not take the barrel out of the fore stock again.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

I see what you're getting at Demo, but I'm in agreement with Peter, If the rifle required a new action, it would have been stripped and written off.
This is at the peak of wartime production, no shortage of rifles, had it been 1940 than that might be different.
The clue is with the buyer/distributor stamp, Detroit, can you give us shots of other marks, including proofs?

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Muffer I also fail to see the logic behind replacing an action body but the examples are just too many to ignore. Just recently I handled one almost identical to this one that was absolutely legitimate in my mind. If the factory wanted to scrub a serial number for whatever reason, I would think they would without too much regard for prettying it up. I have several examples of FTR'd rifles where an old military district number was ground off and one with a serial number ground off and that is exactly what you see, a ground off number with no pretty finishing carried out. The fact that it has matching batch assembly numbers on the action and bolt adds a little more intrigue and perhaps more supports the argument that this was a pre-used 44 dated action, or does it? I still fail to see any indication of a previous serial number being removed. There are a number of unused and unnumbered 40's dated actions floating around now in private hands that would have been kept in surplus. Why? This gun certainly does not have the appearance of one of the guns Jovino's company put together and therefore would have been imported by him as a whole gun as is directly from government sales. If it was one of his put together rifles wouldn't it have the A suffix, and how do we explain the FTR and MA51 stamp on the receiver that look absolutely legitimate lithgow stamps. Therefore it would have been serial numbered during the FTR or before but not after. The numbers on action and bolt look identical but marginally different to the barrel and nosecap, so I'm still suggesting that the action and bolt were numbered sometime during 1944 or just after and the barrel was numbered to match during the FTR in 1951 as well as the nosecap.
As Peter would say, flak hat on waiting for the barrage.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

I used to agree with you on this Peter but somebody from NZ ( 5th Bat maybe ) has an English rifle with a Lithgow action all with matching numbers. The action and bolt have been numbered to match the barrel and nose cap. There were no barred out numbers or grind marks.
Hope he sees this thread and puts up the pictures again.

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Bindi his is not the only one. I have not personally held it or looked at the photographic proof, yet, but I am aware of another one that is similar to Stuarts only with a 1928 dated lithgow action and again with no cut-off slot. The 1928 dated action fits in because many 1928 and mid 30's dated actions that remained in surplus during the quiet period were assembled into full rifles for the first time at the early stages of the war. Also apparently another chap in WA has one similar, a 1939 dated action with no cut-off slot and much earlier serial number but I am not aware of the specifics of that one.

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Originally Posted by bindi2

i used to agree with you on this peter but somebody from nz ( 5th bat maybe ) has an english rifle with a lithgow action all with matching numbers. The action and bolt have been numbered to match the barrel and nose cap. There were no barred out numbers or grind marks.
Hope he sees this thread and puts up the pictures again.

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Attachment 39414Attachment 39415Attachment 39416Attachment 39417Attachment 39419Attachment 39418Attachment 39420Attachment 39421Attachment 39422Attachment 39423

Thanks 5th, good recollection for an old drunk Bindii, yes this one has a few unanswered questions too.
Demo I will have to admit that there is a lot out there that will continue to perplex us, we'd get awfull bored if we only had the same old same old every day.
It's a pity the owner of this one is not able to assist with a few more photo's, proof marks and view marks might give us a lead on where it's been if nothing else.
I may just be getting more sceptical as I get older, I'm just starting to see a few odd stamps coming in to the equation, just fractionally different fonts and sizes, just not sure enough to say fake.

This one isn't a Jovino import. It was imported by Pacific Arms Corp in Sacramento, California. I had a dozen Aussie SMLE rifles from them in 1990 when I first got licensed and they were honest, as imported directly from Australia. My guess is it's an anomaly but correct. My Dad even bought one that's a straight 1945 Mk.III* in minty condition and still has it in Florida.

Here is some more pictures.

Just a couple of questions, maybe my eyes, the S3377 appears slightly different, the 33 stamp on the bolt handle has not the rounded fullness in the 3 that appears on the action. Despite the curve, the roundness should be struck deep if it were the same.
The barrel date '51, when did they stop putting the number on the barrel? 43?
The action appears to have been scrubbed, note the change of direction and the deeper marks are partially removed. yes?......the different size numbers on the action.
The nosecap and bolt are the same font, along with the timber they are probably the only original bits.

So what are you saying? If the reciever has beeb scrubbed to make the gun worth more, then why put the FTR on. Or the MA51? If scrubbed by who? It does not made sence to me for someone to go through all the effort to mark this gun for no increase in value. I too have heard that they quit marking the seriel number on the barrel in 43 but I also collect Japanese firearms and you learn that there is no absouluts.

All I can say at this point is "Never say never with L-Es"!

That's just very strange. Which at this point seems to be a good thing!

Nice photos, BTW! :thup:

Lithgow stopped serial numbering barrels mid 1943 but began again in earnest in 1950 with the commencement of the FTR program.

The action and bolt numbers look identical to each other as do the barrel and nosecap, indicating they were numbered at different times. My feeling is still that the action and bolt were a replacement on a much earlier rifle that was serial numbered 36662 in 1944 and then past through an FTR in 1951 where all parts were discarded and the action was rebuilt into a new rifle. The barrel, nosecap and wood were serial numbered to match the action at this time and no parts original to the rifle prior to 1951 would remain now.

I still can't see any signs on the action to indicate it was scrubbed nor can I see anything unusual or abnormal about the batch assembly numbers. It has the D^D that looks completely legitimate and in character with FTR'd rifles and also present are the proof and inspection stamps. I've had a quick look at PAA numbers on some of my rifles this morning and they are a mix ranging from very poorly stamped to some being a very neat arrangement. I couldn't call it when comparing to the style of that time.

The bolt has no sign of being scrubbed and it has a PAA number so it couldn't be a civilian stamp on a surplus unnumbered bolt. It must be a legitimate factory stamp and most certainly matches the barrel, nosecap and wood.

The only way I see that this gun could be a civilian put together is if a proofed action, bolt and barrel with matching batch assembly numbers but no serial numbers was somehow kept in surplus and got into the civilian market. I would think this highly unlikely. Particularly since the action has D^D, FTR and MA51 stamped in standard font.

Where's your glasses. The stylised font on all but the first number of the S/N on the receiver, and the FTR, are the only ones other the the import signature to use this style, all other numbers and script is in standard font.
Here's my view of the receiver scrub.
Attachment 39463

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Where's your glasses. The stylised font on all but the first number of the S/N on the receiver, and the FTR, are the only ones other the the import signature to use this style, all other numbers and script is in standard font.
Here's my view of the receiver scrub.
Attachment 39463

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Muffer I don't identify that as a scrub mark. I've seen this sort of variation in machine marks before particularly on 40's lithgow production. The 3 does look odd I agree but is identical to the bolt and I've also seen this sort of variation in letter size many times before.

I've explained in full sequence how I believe this rifle is legitimate but you haven't described in sequence how it is fake. Do we agree that the barrel, wood and nosecap are legitimate? What about the bolt? Is it just the action that is dodgy? Do you think that the action was numbered by the importer to match the bolt and barrel? It seems the importers or someone did a fair bit of humping(I hate this word) to this gun to make it right.

Just as a metter of interest and in no real relation to this thread except that we're talking bolts, we used to re-use old otherwise serviceable bolts that had been taken from rifles for many reasons. At the Base workshops I am familiar with, we'd wait until we had a load then take them to the fitters/turners shop - just along the path - and he'd mount them in the lathe, set it running and while the bolt was rotating in the chuck, a high speed cross slide mounted small diameter grinder (that they also used to sharpen rotary lawnmower blades and crankshafts etc etc) would skim across the rear of the bolt and take off the old number. Not touching the knob of course. Once the bolts had gone through the phosphating tank and had been de-embrittled (they'd been hardness tested previously of course) they were like new. IN fact, you wouldn't be able to tell them from new!

The action is the bit that throws me, yes the barrel, FOREWOOD, and nosecap seem legit, the butt should have had an FTR stamp.
As for humping, more a case of too much if that's the case. Maybe played with by a previous owner, that may explain the different stamps used.
Just another one to put in the Don't Know file, until something else comes along to help clarify it.

I used to keep a file on the odd ones I came across, big problem is the disc is corrupted, I'm trying to reboot an old laptop with very dead battery, to see if it can be downloaded again, if all else fails I'll pull the hard drive.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

The action is the bit that throws me, yes the barrel, FOREWOOD, and nosecap seem legit, the butt should have had an FTR stamp.
As for humping, more a case of too much if that's the case. Maybe played with by a previous owner, that may explain the different stamps used.
Just another one to put in the Don't Know file, until something else comes along to help clarify it.

I used to keep a file on the odd ones I came across, big problem is the disc is corrupted, I'm trying to reboot an old laptop with very dead battery, to see if it can be downloaded again, if all else fails I'll pull the hard drive.

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Muffer it's my belief that the butts on rifles FTR'd during the 50's were not marked as such and were generally totally bare, except for some cases where second hand butts were used and stamps from the previous gun were removed but still partially visible.

Mate however much we disagree in this discussion, I do with the greatest respect and fully acknowledge yours and Peters lengthy experience with enfields and as armorers.

Just for comparison a few pics of my FTR 1926 Lithgow, FTR in 53, new barrel, bolt, nose cap and timber fitted then, no FTR on the timber, its had a NOS barrel fitted since these pics were taken.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3929-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3928-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3936-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3934-1.jpg

Well this gun is whatever it is and I want to thank everyone for their time and help. I have shot her only once and I'am still working up loads. Thanks again everyone and come on spring!

Sorry Demo, I did not intend to cross swords, your collection would give you greater access to on hand referencing.
Maybe that is our problem, it's easy to see fault or see nothing from thousands of miles away, you can't beat having the item in your hot hands.

I am beginning to lean more towards your post#29, I notice under magnification the remnants of buttmarks more consistant with it's age, also it appears that the buttplate overlaps the timber, showing that the butt was heavily sanded in this area.

Just to answer Detroits query regarding the MA51, this is just the barrel manufacture date, it is sheer coincidence that the barrel is the same year as the FTR, it could have been any year new barrel on hand at the time, thanks for allowing us to pick your rifle to pieces, it gives us something to do and rattles the rust from our brains.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Sorry Demo, I did not intend to cross swords, your collection would give you greater access to on hand referencing.
Maybe that is our problem, it's easy to see fault or see nothing from thousands of miles away, you can't beat having the item in your hot hands.

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Mate sorry for what. I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and I hope we can engage like this more often.

In a pub over a beer.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

In a pub over a beer.

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I would do a raid for that.

Homer...
(quote) "I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and I hope we can engage like this more often."

muffett.2008...
(quote) "In a pub over a beer."

Bindi2
(quote) "I would do a raid for that."

It's about time I weighed into this discussion with something relevant for the outcome reached.... I'll buy the first round :cheers:

Thank you all concerned for a very educational and entertaining discussion. I've thoroughly enjoyed following it.

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Originally Posted by Son

Homer
I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and I hope we can engage like this more often.

Quote Originally Posted by muffett.2008 View Post
In a pub over a beer.

Bindi2
I would do a raid for that.

It's about time I weighed into this discussion with something relevant for the outcome reached.... I'll buy the first round :cheers:

Thank you all concerned for a very educational and entertaining discussion. I've thoroughly enjoyed following it.

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WOO HOO green tarp time. i would even allow ( invite maybe) that Kiwi bloke.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

I would do a raid for that.

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Yes well your raids to the eastern states are becoming a bit of a concern for all of us:)

Look at that... the pair of you can smell free beer, simultaneously interstate after midnight!:rofl:

Why am I not surprised :surrender:

I reckon when I get the new Aberdeen range up and going, we should make this more than just a jest.
They must pay Armourers more these days, my recollection of pay was a tad different. But at least the beer in the boozers was always cold, now you'd be lucky to get a soft drink.

I'll be there with bells on, mate! I need some shooting time, a bloke told me once a while back my technique wasn't good..:slap:.. even took pictures of me and my little rifle

I dont think there is much wrong with my stubby holder technque. Could also bring a work rifle if you chuck in the HXP.

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Homer

Yes well your raids to the eastern states are becoming a bit of a concern for all of us:)

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Can not imagine why. My gun safe does not have its own post code.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

I dont think there is much wrong with my stubby holder technque. Could also bring a work rifle if you chuck in the HXP.

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------



Can not imagine why. My gun safe does not have its own post code.

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Anyone willing to teach me some "tricks of the trade", I'll supply a few shiny Greeks for you to empty so you can take home.

The only thing that worries me about Demo's new name, is that his beergut may be as big as that other Homer, the beer costs could be astronomical, but then, as Bindii hasn't posted a pic. yet, there should be a bit more to go around.

The homework will be done.

If Bindi can post a good pic I'll buy the beer

Strewth, the beer could be flowing well.
There's an outstanding offer from Demo, now Brad and Smithy..........lets party:beerchug:

If this gets off the ground I might even let Bindi have a go of the fox rifle:eek:

That is provided I qualfy for an invitation:bow:

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Originally Posted by Lithy

If this gets off the ground I might even let Bindi have a go of the fox rifle:eek:

That is provided I qualfy for an invitation:bow:

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Mate I think you qualify, and some.

I miss you and a few other Aussies not posting more often.

orrgee thanks Lithy i would let you come with that offer and supply your stubby holder.

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Originally Posted by Lithy

If this gets off the ground I might even let Bindi have a go of the fox rifle:eek:

That is provided I qualfy for an invitation:bow:

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I hear a rumour that another ES raid is planned by Bindi and having to forgo the annual Bindi Bindi fox shoot. Is obviously having too much fun with too much time on his hands.

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Originally Posted by smith3006

I hear a rumour that another ES raid is planned by Bindi and having to forgo the annual Bindi Bindi fox shoot. Is obviously having too much fun with too much time on his hands.

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Buggar now the cat is out of the bag. No surprises this time you Eastern Staters will just have to worry whose patch i am going to do over. Life is good life is very good.

Looks like the beer is safe there is no pics yet. :bash:

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Originally Posted by smith3006

Looks like the beer is safe there is no pics yet. :bash:

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:slap:

Man of few words? Bindii.:lol::rofl::lol:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Man of few words? Bindii.:lol::rofl::lol:

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:thup:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Man of few words? Bindii.:lol::rofl::lol:

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And fewer 'puter skills:D

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Originally Posted by Lithy

And fewer 'puter skills:D

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:clap:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

:clap:

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Is this what they call the silent treatment :ugh:.... What's next ...:madsmile: ... Pic's :banghead:

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Originally Posted by smith3006

Is this what they call the silent treatment :ugh:.... What's next ...:madsmile: ... Pic's :banghead:

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:super::wave::dunno: