"Cogswell & Harrison" S&W Revolver Question

I have an old, 5-screw, S&W M&P revolver. The right side of the barrel is marked .38 S&W (not .38 S&W Special). It is also marked with some of the British identifiers ("3.5 Tons," etc.; pretty faint & not easy for my old eyes to decipher). On the left side of the frame, above the grip area, is "Converted by Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd, London."

I have read that a large number of old .38 S&W (or .380-200 British) Victory Models were converted to .38 Special by Cogswell & Harrison, for return to the American market.

Here's where I need some help. Mine is not a Victory Model (as best I can tell). It has a 6-digit serial number (418xxx) with no "V" prefix, and is blued (I think the original finish; the S&W marks are crisp & clear). I find no markings indicating governmental ownership or use (unless I'm overlooking something). It has the lanyard ring & swivel in the butt. Also, the grips are old, checkered walnut, but without the S&W escutcheons.

Finally, the front sight is unlike that of any other S&W M&P 5-screw I've ever seen. It is a sloped blade atop a sloped ramp (not the "half-moon" profile normally encountered).

I have (again) read that the revolvers converted from the original chambering to .38 Special were marked "Special" on the right side of the barrel, near the original ".38 S&W" stamp. Mine has no such added marking.

My questions:

1) Could this revolver have been a UK military issued WWII sidearm? Any info or background, sources, etc., would be appreciated.
2) Do you think it was converted to .38 Special, based on the "Converted by ..." mark on the frame? Or, could the "conversion" refer to something else, in light of no barrel marking re: cartridge (front sight, for instance)?
3) As the .38 S&W case is slightly larger in diameter than the .38 Special, many "conversions" are not safe to fire with Specials, as the cases often split. Any info re: Cogswell & Harrison conversions, in this regard? Are they considered safe (and if so, how did the company achieve this)?

I appreciate all info and assistance, and thank you in advance.

I'd attach photos, but my camera gear is dated, using that ol' 35 mm stuff, and I'm too technology-challenged to go digital .....

Ray

Your S&W could have been purchased by the British Purchasing Commission prior to Lend-Lease. The commercial proofs you describe are post 1954. If I remember correctly each chamber on a revolver was proofed, and the barrel should also be proofed. Does the barrel of your S&W have a proof mark? If it has no proof mark the barrel may have been replaced at some later date, and the front sight you describe sounds like a later variety.

It was shipped from the factory as a .38 S/W . Many people use the terms 38 S/W and 38/200 like .223 and 5.56mm or .308 and 7.62 . The 38/200 is a vastly hotter load in what is basicly the same case as the 38S/W .
Because the S/W revolvers were made for the 38 special , they ( and the Colts) could easily handle the pressures of the 38/200 . The barrels , however , were bored to Americian 38 S/W specs ( same as 38 special ) and the British had some concerns early on that the slightly fatter 38/200 bullet would put excessive strain on the skinny muzzles of the S/Ws ( Colts were thicker tubed ) . Therefore , early on , some were counterbored so as to reduce the pressure here . You might check the muzzle to see if that's the case here. If not , just try to slip in a 38 special . If it's still in unaltered 38 S/W , it will not go all the way in. If it does , the chamber has been lengthened to take 38 specials , but because the hole was drilled to take 38 S/W , which is fatter , it will be oversized for the special rounds. Not usually a safety issue with std pressure 38s , but case swelling usually results in stiff extraction and cases too bulged for reloading. You can still shoot 38S/Ws through it , though , kinda like firing 38 specials through a .357 .
As a compared loading , using a 200 gr lead bullet , 1.6 to 1.8 grs is for std 38 S/W . I use 2.7 grs. for the 38/200 . Because I use 38S/W marked cases , every box is marked 38/200 only , not for 38S/W tipups , Victories and Commandos only .
Stay safe , Chris

The standard .38 S&W was normally loaded to 685 fps, where the .38-200 was loaded to 625 fps. Would this make the .38-200 vastly hotter?

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Your S&W could have been purchased by the British Purchasing Commission prior to Lend-Lease. The commercial proofs you describe are post 1954. If I remember correctly each chamber on a revolver was proofed, and the barrel should also be proofed. Does the barrel of your S&W have a proof mark? If it has no proof mark the barrel may have been replaced at some later date, and the front sight you describe sounds like a later variety.

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I'll study the piece more in depth (and with a magnifying lens) over the weekend. The proof marks I described are actually on the barrel. I have no doubt the front sight is aftermarket; just didn't know if that sort of ramp sight arrangement was known to be done on S&Ws by Cogswell & Harrison (or others).

I have a few boxes of .38 S&W ammo (also have an old Enfield Mk II revolver), and reloading dies. While I don't plan to shoot this one extensively, the sweet, smooth, long-action is too tempting to ignore ... I think it'll be no problem to load .358" bullets in a properly sized and crimped .38 S&W case, so no problem re: bore diameter.

Thanks for the additional info and feedback!

Fantastic knowledge there Johnny Peppers and Emmagee1917. Thanks for telling us

Yes , It does !

You see , the std load you listed for the 38 S/W is for a 145/146 gr bullet . The 38/200 load is for the 200 gr lead bullet. You need to compare apples to apples . The 1.8 gr max 38 S/W load I listed was for a 200 gr lead bullet and it moves only 550 fps through a non-vented 5-1/2 inch test fixture . The 2.7 gr load moves a 200 gr lead bullet at 639 fps through a 5-inch " vented" S/W pistol . I am getting at least 100 fps more ( shorten the test fixture and vent it ) and burning 50% more powder ( others have gone as high as 3.0 grains , but I 1) do not want to stress these old guns , 2) am duplicating the 600-650 fps window of original specs , and 3) my guns are shooting to where they're regulated at 2.7 grains. Increasing the powder safely by 50 % over max. is making it a " magnum " , even if it is a pipsqueak one. Do not shoot this load in a lighter / weaker made pistol . I did not list the type of powder in use here , it is easily found on the internet , but I don't want someone saying they blew up thier great-great-grandmother's tip-up because of me.

As I said , stay safe , Chris


PS , sorry , it left out the post I was answering :
The standard .38 S&W was normally loaded to 685 fps, where the .38-200 was loaded to 625 fps. Would this make the .38-200 vastly hotter?

I have one of the C&H converted M&Ps. If you look very carefully at the front of each cylinder, you will see a concentric circle about 0.5mm out from the "hole" in the front of each chamber. What was done was to bore out the cylinder and then insert a sleeve in each chamber that brought it down to the S&W Special diameter. The barrel was often cut to around 4.5 inches and instead of being crowned, it was cut straight down. The ramp plus the sight on top of it often has a Parker-Hale marking if you look closely. The normal proof was the 3.5 tons sq in, rather than the 4 tons sq in of the 38 Special. However, as mentioned earlier in the string, the metal will definitely hold the "normal 0.38 Special" loading.

If you do not have a crowned barrel then it is worth having a gunsmith do this. It cost me all of $40 and converted a pistol that would give a 5" spread at 10 metres, to one that with the same load, gave a 2" circle at the same distance. Enjoy that old warrior. Dave_n

Western Cartridge Co. had a load for the .38 S&W called the .38 Super Police which used a 200 gr. Lubaloy bullet. It was safe to fire in any Colt, S&W or other medium frame revolver. It doesn't matter what the powder charge is as long as the chamber pressures are kept within the limits of the standard .38 S&W load. The K frame S&W is absolutely safe to fire with with the 200 grain S&W cartridge.

There wasn't much danger of overloading or wearing out our .38" revolvers which included the RAF who had all the S&W's. The ammunition allocation for the whole battalion, and only those whom were issued with a revolver or had a revolver allocated to them was in the order of two rounds per man per year. It's TRUE. Added to this was a similarly minute allocation for use by Armourers. Things were a bit better at the big Base workshop but not a lot I can assure you but we always had loads stashed away for the proverbial rainy day

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Originally Posted by Dave_n

If you look very carefully at the front of each cylinder, you will see a concentric circle about 0.5mm out from the "hole" in the front of each chamber. What was done was to bore out the cylinder and then insert a sleeve in each chamber that brought it down to the S&W Special diameter. ... The ramp plus the sight on top of it often has a Parker-Hale marking if you look closely. The normal proof was the 3.5 tons sq in, rather than the 4 tons sq in of the 38 Special. However, as mentioned earlier in the string, the metal will definitely hold the "normal 0.38 Special" loading. Dave_n

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Wow! That's fascinating. I'll take a close look at the cylinder face this evening. If mine was modded via the addition of these sleeves, I can confidently use .38 Specials without fear of case failures.

Thanks, Dave_n and others for this valuable info. For an aging and (I thought) experienced shooter, I still learn something new every day!

Many of the .38 S&W Victory models brought back to the U.S simply had the chamber bored out longer to fire the .38 S&W Special cartridge. This led to the .38 Special cartridge being bulged considerably, but otherwise worked.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Western Cartridge Co. had a load for the .38 S&W called the .38 Super Police which used a 200 gr. Lubaloy bullet. It was safe to fire in any Colt, S&W or other medium frame revolver. It doesn't matter what the powder charge is as long as the chamber pressures are kept within the limits of the standard .38 S&W load. The K frame S&W is absolutely safe to fire with with the 200 grain S&W cartridge.

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What you say is completely true. However , the 38S/W , over here , is handicapped , not by the S/W k frames , but by the cheep small frame "tip-up" revolvers . It is loaded to be safe in them. The super police would be safe in any medium frame revolver . I do not know of it's exact loading , but if equal to the 1.6-1.8 gr loading it would be safe in tip-ups too. If it is the same as the 2.7 gr loading ( ie 38/200 ) , it would not be.
The early British fear was that the .360 diam. 38/200 would split the end of the bbl ( even though it had been " squashed " by the 5-inches of bbl before the end ) because of it's thinness and being bored for .358 diam lead ( .357 jacketed ) bullets .
Anyway , all 38S/W loads , 38/200 loads and my 2.7 load are safe in medium frame revolvers in good , safe condition . The latter two are not safe in tip-ups. BTW , my loads use " Americian " .358 rather than British .360s , although both are offered.
Chris

Where is over here? The U.S. probably had more cheap revolvers made in .38 S&W than any other country. Over the years they have been used with every .38 S&W cartridge made. Other than more recoil the 38 SUPER POLICE had no more pressure than the standard 146 grain load which was loaded to higher velocity.

Without knowing which powder, the grain load means nothing. Bullseye is an extremely fast burning powder while Unique is a slower burning powder. With the 146 grain bullet 2.0 grains of Bullseye has a velocity of 710 fps while 3.0 grains of Unique is only 590 fps.

Someone had run out of things to worry about if they thought a low power pistol load would split a pistol barrel.

Cogswell & Harrison was purchsed by Interarmco (more commonly known in US as Interarms) about 1959 and the staff was put to work converting surplus arms into sporting configurations that they hoped would sell better in the US ( 1959 Guns Magazine article) . The Smiths were converted to .38 spl and to .22 rimfire. Some had adjustable sights. They added the short ramp front sight. They also made a sporting version of the No.1 rifle adding a stamped sheet steel cover around the front sight to make it a "ramp" front sight and they painted a black tip on the shortened forend to make it look like an ebony tip. There were no makings on the rifles to indicate C&H conversion on the ones I have examined.

Over here is USA . The powder is Win 231. I do not know the load data for 146gr round nose , but for 148 gr WC , max Bullseye is 2.7 for 748 and Unique is 3.4 for 747 . If you up'd them to 4gr and 5.3 gr without knowing what you were doing , you'd be heading for a world of hurt.
It's kinda like the high speed 38 special ( 38-44 ? ) that came out just pre-.357 Magnum . It was in a .38 special case but made for the N frame ( IIRC) type guns . If you put them in J frame type guns , you'd have problems.
The 38/200 is to the .38S&W the same as the .38-44 is to the .38 special. So , yes , any 38/200 pistol can easily shoot any .38S&W load , and yes , any 200 gr bullet can be loaded to be safe in any .38S&W pistol.
It's just that the Victories and Commandos were chambered and marked for .38S&W and barreled to Americian specs. and someone in Britian realized this and erred on the side of caution.

Do you remember those square cement block things the used to make the artifical harbors after D-day ? They had pumps to pump the water in and out. One sole person claimed that the pumps would not do it. Everyone else thought he was crazy and an alarmist . On officer finally listened and demanded a test ( there had not been one ) . The pumps failed , so all had to be changed. If not for the lone voice , the Mullbery's would not have left England.

Chris

Hand loaded cartridges was never a concern for the British Military, so overloads don't even enter into the picture. Is there any source of information that a 200 grain or later 180 grain FMJ bullet ever split a S&W Victory barrel?

The .38-44 cartridge was designed for revolvers made on the N or large frame S&W, as it was a .38 Special loaded to 36,000 psi, or in other words, a .38 Special Magnum cartridge. It wasn't loaded too long, as too many were used in regular .38 Special revolvers with bad results. The .38-200 was just a heavier bullet in the .38 S&W loading.

Now, are we changing the discussion to pumps?

No , no barrel end was ever split. I would not think it would have been because the .002 oversized lead bullet would have passed through several inches of steel barrel by the time it got to the thin part and would no longer be .002 oversize .
The 38/200 was NOT a heavier bullet in the .38 S&W loading . That has been my point all along. It uses a heavy bullet AND more powder . It IS the 38-44 of the .38S&W world and needs to be treated as such. Just because they share the same or close to the same brass case , does not make them the same.
I have tried to say this from every angle I could , I don't know how else to put it.

The pump story was to show that experts are not always right. The person who caused the counterbore of the barrels was wrong . But , if he would have been right and it was not done and guns blew up ???
Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Many of the .38 S&W Victory models brought back to the U.S simply had the chamber bored out longer to fire the .38 S&W Special cartridge. This led to the .38 Special cartridge being bulged considerably, but otherwise worked.

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I checked, and mine is one of these. No evidence of any chamber liners, and .38 S&W rounds drop effortlessly into all six chambers (the same rounds won't quite fit into my .38 Special revolver's chambers).

Of course, .38 Specials also drop into the old 1905, indicating the chambers were lengthened for the American market. Don't think I'll be using Specials in it, though....

No problem, though. As I mentioned earlier, this wasn't purchased as a "using" weapon. I purchased it for its historical and interesting features. I'll fire some .38 S&Ws through it, then clean it thoroughly, and take it out occasionally for a short "exercise" session.

That is a pity that they only bored out the 38 S&W. My converted version will not chamber38 S&W only 38 Specials which is why i made a rather careful inspection of the cylinder's front and found the sleeving. Enjoy it in 38 S&W. I load a 360 diameter 180 FP lead head i 38 S&W cases from Starline and they run to POA at 7 to 10 metres in my Enfields, Webley Mk IVs and a number of 1905s of various ages. Dave_n