Added this one to the collection. British and Canadian proof marks present. Scope and rings are currently MIA.
Identical base can be found on pg 312 of RRS. Reasonable to assume this rifle once sported a Pernox Goerz 3.5x as well?
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Added this one to the collection. British and Canadian proof marks present. Scope and rings are currently MIA.
Identical base can be found on pg 312 of RRS. Reasonable to assume this rifle once sported a Pernox Goerz 3.5x as well?
Several scopes & rings with that type of base have been on the market in the last year.
I've seen 2 out of NZ on E-Pay...
Beautiful.
The mounts do appear identical, but one could mount many different scopes on such bases. I doubt the gunmakers who obviously made these up for the Ross M10 intended to be limited to only one scope, unless that was their "house brand". The 'hook & peg' design was used by both Alex Martin & Co. and George Gibbs & Co., before, during and after WWI.
So far I've never seen the Pernox mounted on any other than German rifles & Rosses. They are a rare scope, with probably not more than about 1500 made, at the most. Serial numbers that have been seen actually suggest far fewer than that, perhaps a few hundred.
A roof prism as the erector cell is an unnecessary complication presumably done to compete with the Zeiss prismatics from a marketing point of view and perhaps to reduce the number of glass surfaces through which the light must pass. In those pre-coating days, every surface meant a loss of transmitted light. I have a Pernox 3.5x and it is a very bright scope for its day, but not bright enough to justify the cost probably, which is no doubt why they didn't persist and Goerz went on to conventional convex lens designs.
There is no accumulation of dirt, grease etc in the places one would expect it around the scope base, and the screw slots are damaged.
One locating pin appears to be missing and the other looks like it has been in and out a few times.
Can you be certain that the base was originally fitted to this particular rifle?
Has the rifle been refinished recently?
Is there a gunsmith's name?
The checkered trigger is a unique feature.
What does the "C.R.2" refer to? "Charles Ross" perhaps? There was a .280 Scotch Deer Stalker in the UK with a "C.R. to XXX" marked escutcheon plate that may have been a presentation by Sir Charles.
(Rather pointless to proof it at 18 tons in the UK when it had already been proofed to 28 tons in Canada!)
Barrel appears to have been shortened twice: once down to 26"(?) and then perhaps about 3/8" the second time? I say that because 28" was stock and there is almost always a good 1/2" of barrel past the foresight base. Of course it could have been set up that way from the beginning if the customer or smith preferred. After all, the M10 with Pernox in TRRS has a similar 'short' muzzle, so perhaps that was their 'house' style. Might be a clue as to which gunmaker it was.
What is the small circular mark divided into three sections? It looks like "BC4", one character in each section.
Sir Charles obviously owned many rifles, but this may have been a combination that he ordered or at least initiated. The M10 with Pernox scope that E. C. Crossman called "the rifle of my dreams" was provided to him by Sir Charles it is stated in The Ross Rifle Story. If the mounts on the Crossman rifle are identical to these, then that would indicate the rifle must have been in the UK for the fitting of the mounts & scope.
That being the case, I wouldn't be surprised if the C.R. does refer to Charles Ross in some sense, this being the second of who knows how many and for what purpose.
6948 is a very low number for an M10 and early in their production was when Sir Charles was trying to promote the M10 by giving, or perhaps loaning examples to influential writers and figures.
The M10 in The Ross Rifle Story that has these mounts has a 30.5 inch barrel which is unique on a M10. The rifle is described as "Canadian Ordnance and British proofed" and serial numbered 8876. One wonders why it would be "Canadian Ordnance" proofed, and when...it might very well have been a sniping setup that Sir Charles tried to interest the authorities in during WWI. The 30.5 inch barrel would reduce flash and help accuracy, despite being rather unwieldy, but then Sir Charles like Sir Sam Hughes, had never been in a front line trench.
Frank Iriam a sniper of the 8th Battalion CEF knew the .280 before the war and tried to get his CO to request some through the "War Office", that came to nothing of course, so eventually Sir Charles was contacted directly and replied that he had two rifles which he would provide, obviously with scopes, but the officer deputed to meet him in London and collect the rifles went out on the town and forgot the appointment. When they asked again Sir Charles had left the UK and that was that.
Other than the Zeiss prismatics a la Lt. Greener, one Voightlander Skopar 5 shown in TRRS, and these Pernox scopes, there were probably very few scoped M10s or Scotch Deer Stalkers pre-WWI. Almost all the scopes that are seen on them now are either surplussed WWI sniper scopes fitted in the 20s or 30s, or later types like the Lyman Alaskan and Zeiss Zeilklein.
Who knows, maybe yours is one of the rifles the 8th Battalion were supposed to get!
This prompted me to do a bit more digging online. It turns out C.P. Goerz established an American subsidiary in 1895, not long behind Zeiss forming their ill-fated alliance with Bausch & Lomb. There is an advert from Rod & Gun, November 1907 online which includes an advert for a "Telescopic Gun Sight" offered by the C.P. Goerz American Optical Co. This subsidiary continued to operate in the US until 1975, long after the parent company in Germany was absorbed by Zeiss. So it could well be that the Goerz representative contacted Ross and not the other way round, as a rep. doing his job would solicit all the domestic rifle manufacturers as one of his first tasks. There are so few Goerz scopes seen that they must not have been very successful with their sales. Peter Senich does mention that the US Ordnance Department tried to get the rights to manufacture a conventional Goerz scope in 1915-16, but their correspondence was ignored, so perhaps this US presence is the reason Goerz came to their attention in the first place.
There was another Goerz Pernox on a Ross .280 sold at Christie's a few years back. This is the description:
Quote:
A RARE ROSS .280 (ROSS) SPORTING RIFLE, No. 5342, straight pull action, blued finish, stock with pistolgrip and chequered steel butt-plate, sling-eye and sling-swivel, barrel with open-sights and adjustable bead-foresight, the receiver mounted with a C. P. Goerz (Berlin) Pernox 5x telescopic-sight. Price Realized £1,150 Sale 5444 19 July 1995 London, King Street.
Ross M-10 factory barrels came in both 26" and 28".
As said should be about 1/2" past front sight though.
Good point about the serial #. Both this one and the the one sold at Christie`s are way below normal known Ross M-10 factory #s which start about 7500.
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The barrel has been shortened to 22", in the process of tracking down the previous owners...
I guess that could have been a Scotch Deer Stalker at Christie's rather than an M10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ax.338
There's something else a little odd about the markings: usually the SN is right along the edge of the stock, even lower than where the CR2 is. That might suggest the CR2 went on first.
OP, you might want to take off the butt plate and see what is stamped on the inside if anything. Might be worth taking it out of the stock too and seeing what markings are on the underside of the action and on the stock.
The British used the "Imperial Ton" or "long Ton" which weighed 2240 pounds or 1.12 times the 2000 pound "short Ton" used in Canada and the United States. Still quite a spread though, 40, 320 versus 56000. However, the Law at the time said that all firearms imported and sold had to be proofed to a certain British standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
This rifle could be one of the "200" rifles and shotguns that were reportedly seized from Balnagown Castle sometime in the 50s or 60s(?) by the local police. These arms were purportedly dumped at sea, but somehow it wouldn't surprise me if a few escaped along the way.:rolleyes: That might explain both the late proof marks and the "C.R." Sir Charles quite possibly didn't bother to submit for proof rifles for his personal use or collection; he was apparently never known for deference to authority or any rule or regulation he considered pointless or just inconvenient!
The odds of this being one of the two rifles offered to the 8th Battalion just got rather slimmer, if he had 200 on hand. Of course many of those may have been other makes and models that he used for pleasure or research. Who knows, he might even have been a collector like some of us!;)
Birmingham Proof House reports the "BC" mark represents 1977 as the year of proof. "4" being the particular inspector who proofed the rifle. Balnagown Castle was finally sold in 1972 IRRC.
As it was unproved the rifle was presumably never sold in the UK before 1977, at least not by the gun trade.
Thanks to another forum member a Pernox of the "correct" vintage has been secured. Anyone have a spare mount similar to the one on Page 312 of the RRS or access to the rifle?
Considering having some kind of functional bracket made until the original is located, that could be a decade or two from now. The pictures in the RRS along with the scope can be used to provide scale for most of the required measurements and the rifle will provide the centerlines.
The scope needs some TLC...
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I tried tracking down the Catalog for the Christies Auction 19 July 1995 where the Pernox scoped sporter was sold, no luck yet.