Non adjustable rifle scopes ; like in WWI and WWII

Two questions, and they go together:

1. Is there a modern equivalent (over-the-counter) of the scope attachments that adjusted the scope for elevation and deflection (windage)?
Modern scopes have adjustments inside the scope.

2. Is there a modern scope that has no built-in adjustments?

Jeff Cooper lamented the loss of the simplicity and robustness of those two items. He said that at Gunsite, there were few rifle classes that did not have scope malfunctions. He advocated a scope that had the reticle etched on the glass; not a wire inside the glass. The elevation and deflection adjustments were to be made by the scope mounts.
Please lead me to any posts in this forum and links outside.
I thank you,
Dave

I've been using the same $20 rifle scope on my rifle for 30 years in all sorts of weather conditions and have never had a failure with it. I also have scopes on a dozen other rifles, none of which can be called top of the line although one is a Weaver and is probably the best that I own. Not a single malfunction with any of them.

Leatherwood makes a Winchester A5 type scope and I think there is a new version of the Unertl.


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A good example of a non-adjustable rifle scope is the SUSAT sight on the SA80 rifle and other things. Without doubt,m a GOOD prismatic sight but all the adjustment has to take place externally. This means that by definition, it can only be mounted on three points. A left/right screwed axis and another screwed elevating axis at the rear. While the sight is good, the method of mounting is crap

If I remember correctly, B&L made a fully adjustable mount for scopes having no internal adjustments in the late 1950' or 1960's. I believe that they also made a non adjustable scope to go with it.
I do not believe that they were used durig either war.
There are four scopes listed by B&L in the 1969 Stogers Catalog that require external adjusting mounts. They varied in price from $49.95 for the 2 1/2 power BALTUR to $99.95 for the variable 2 1/2 to 8 X BALVAR 8. Mounts weres ole seerately and were identified as the "Custom Mounts". They could be had in one piece @ &24.95) or two piece ( @ &16.95) versions.
FWIW

A current sight would be the C79 optical sight in use in the Canadian C7 rifle. External adjustments only.

Jeff Cooper was a bit off in this lament. Most externally adjustable scopes are MORE fragile than what later replaced them! And the old Unertls and Winchester/Lyman types had to be returned to a mechanical stop each shot to repeat zero at all. Forget to slide the scope back to it's stop and suffer the consequences. What Chairman Jeff wanted was good gear. At the time most domestic scopes were not rugged at all in a military sense.

The British No.32/L1a1 scope was tough enough to survive near on 40 years of service. I reckon the Unertl 10x MST100 is of the same tradition.

Old style but in current production? Malcolm scopes are decent retro gear.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Jeff Cooper was a bit off in this lament. Most externally adjustable scopes are MORE fragile than what later replaced them! And the old Unertls and Winchester/Lyman types had to be returned to a mechanical stop each shot to repeat zero at all. Forget to slide the scope back to it's stop and suffer the consequences. What Chairman Jeff wanted was good gear. At the time most domestic scopes were not rugged at all in a military sense.

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I use scopes almost exclusively for hunting and it's always been my experience that the problem with accuracy has been improper mounting, not the scope internals. If anything is loose, the scope will wander. External adjustments of the mounts would seem to introduce an entirely new issue with having to protect the mounts from contact and/or impact to prevent them from moving the scope.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I use scopes almost exclusively for hunting and it's always been my experience that the problem with accuracy has been improper mounting, not the scope internals. If anything is loose, the scope will wander. External adjustments of the mounts would seem to introduce an entirely new issue with having to protect the mounts from contact and/or impact to prevent them from moving the scope.

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All true, but I've seen many hunting scopes which have lost adjustment function, shift zero (up to 12 MOA) with power changes, have had lenses come adrift, fog internally, and have been bent. Variable power scopes seem particularly bad, and that apples to new stuff as well. Some don't hold zero with power changes even when new. And that's not just cheap stuff either. The old saw that your optic ought to cost as much or more than the rifle is not a bad guide, but I fought it for the longest time.

(Weaver scopes have been and appear to be now good value optics, but I know where there's a box of dead ones, including one with the adrift lens drama. Too bad, because it was a nice LER stainless scope that would be loverly on a 629 S&W.)

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Originally Posted by jmoore

All true, but I've seen many hunting scopes which have lost adjustment function, shift zero (up to 12 MOA) with power changes, have had lenses come adrift, fog internally, and have been bent. Variable power scopes seem particularly bad, and that apples to new stuff as well. Some don't hold zero with power changes even when new. And that's not just cheap stuff either. The old saw that your optic ought to cost as much or more than the rifle is not a bad guide, but I fought it for the longest time.

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I've never spent much for a rifle scope. Half I have came with the rifle they are on, the Weaver being one of those, the rest are about the least expensive scope I could find at the time. Mostly due to economics I suppose. I purchased a Savage 99 30 years ago and put a $19.99 Bushnell Sportview 3-9 variable on it and it's been there ever since. I've carried that rifle long enough that the bluing is mostly gone from the receiver. The scope has one noticeable dent in it that I don't recall when or where occurred. The exterior logo fell off about 15 years ago and the internal rings showing which way to turn the adjustment screws both came loose many years ago. The scope however still works like the day I bought it. I haven't moved it more than 1 or 2 clicks in any direction at its annual sighting in for as long as I can remember. It has outlasted my eyes as I can no longer set it higher than 6 now because of my changing focus points.

I have seen scopes that have failed. I guess I've just been lucky myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

(Weaver scopes have been and appear to be now good value optics, but I know where there's a box of dead ones, including one with the adrift lens drama. Too bad, because it was a nice LER stainless scope that would be loverly on a 629 S&W.)

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I have a Weaver Classic Extreme 2.5 - 10 X 56mm, with 30mm tube, German #4 crosshairs, variable brightness lighted red dot, and side adjustible A.O.
I LOVE this scope, which sits atop my Savage model 114 in .270Win. It's the best combination I have, and it always works. It has awesome light gathering capability, and the variable power red dot helps me place the crosshairs on the bucks in very low light early in the morning and late in the evening. I have never had any problems with this scope at all. But I often forget about the fact that I zero'd it 1.5" high at 100 yards. So what happens is if a Buck gets within about 25 yards of me, as the last one did, I nearly shoot under him, nearly, but thats not a scope malfunction. It's a problem only with me not thinking about the trajectory of that bullet at 25 yards. The scope would have cost more than the Rifle if I purchased it (locally) over the counter, but I got it nearly $200.00 cheaper buying it online. I have never had any problem with this scope ever, except finding really good working flip-open covers that will fit the 56mm objective lense.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I haven't moved it more than 1 or 2 clicks in any direction at its annual sighting in for as long as I can remember.

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And that might be the secret right there! (However, I have fixed four-power Sportview purchased used with target turrets that has survived uncountable adjustments on a .22 silhouette pistol or two.)

The most common drama for me has been the "wandering zero with power change". Redfields being the worst. Had a brand new Burris that had the same problem. Kept it, but never change power.

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Originally Posted by A3 Pseudo Scout

Two questions, and they go together:

1. Is there a modern equivalent (over-the-counter) of the scope attachments that adjusted the scope for elevation and deflection (windage)?
Modern scopes have adjustments inside the scope.

2. Is there a modern scope that has no built-in adjustments?

Jeff Cooper lamented the loss of the simplicity and robustness of those two items. He said that at Gunsite, there were few rifle classes that did not have scope malfunctions. He advocated a scope that had the reticle etched on the glass; not a wire inside the glass. The elevation and deflection adjustments were to be made by the scope mounts.
Please lead me to any posts in this forum and links outside.
I thank you,
Dave

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Be interesting to know precisely when he made these statements or wrote them.

I suspect the real reasons that external adjustments enjoyed several decades of popularity were:
1. Scope manufacturers did not have the technology to seal and moisture proof their products.
2. They didn't know how to make internal adjustments or keep the reticle centered.

Eventually technology improved and these issues were addressed.

Frankly the target scope style micrometer scopes and mounts were never satisfactory in a military role. Just too delicate.
Some of the german hunting scopes used on their snipers had the windage adjustment in the base. You need a special "skate key" to move the scope. Its frankly a royal PITA and not repeatable.

I admit the "V-block" mounts offered by Stith and B&L had a nice clean appearance. But one one has to ask if it was a good idea why did it fade away like 40 50 years ago?

As to the reticles, the military has used a lot of etched reticles where the pattern had a lot of complex ranging marks and where there was a need for illumination. For the simpler crosswire or post and crosswire reticles used on rifles it may just be a matter of cost.

Regards,

Jim