1965 7.62 LeeEnfield, should I buy it?

At my local range I found this 1965 7.62mm rifle and an interested to buy it, but I am far from knowing what the markings mean. Any insight would be very appreciated, thank you.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/4-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/5-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/6-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/8-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...012/12/9-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...12/12/10-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...12/12/11-1.jpg

I trolled about online this afternoon and the asking price for this rifle is in line or a bit below others that I see available, but am still very interested to hear from anyone who can tell me anything about the rifle or the markings. Thanks!

You never said for how much? Its a sporter, If it was 100.00 yeah I would buy it

Made in India for use by their security forces. R.F.I. = Rifle Factory Ishapore. As NRA mentioned it's been sporterized by removing the handguards and modifying the forend and buttstock. As far as restoration, I THINK a standard MkIII forend would work but the butt is a peculiar one and not always available.

R.F.I. = Rifle Factory Ishapore

C.R. xxxx = Component, Rifle xxxx (i.e. part number xxxx)

Your market may be different, but over here these rifles have no great value (100-200 in original condition). And in "sporterized" condition I would forget it, as the cost of putting it back into original configuration would exceed the value.

Its a sporterised RFI (Rifle Factory Ishapore) = Indian 2A1A and upgraded version of the Lee Enfield No1Mk3 SMLE to take the Nato 7.62 round - called the last bolt action battle rifle in production. Most aftermarket parts made for the No1 Mk3 with interchange with an Ishapore - like Parker Hale sights, sporter buttstocks like this one etc. The wrist is marked with the RFI factory insignia and name, the model 2A1 and the year of maunfacture -1965. I beleive this after they changed the metalurgy in the receiver to better cope with the round (2A being the previous designation) This one has the later rear sight marked in meters. Ishapore was run by the British government and used all the proofing and inspction marks required - they kept this habit through independance. These are pretty good bolt actions in 7.62 - mine gives my No4mk2 a run for its money with equivalent peep hole target sites. The rimless round allowed 12 in the magazine - an original magazine is quite valuable. The EXXXX number is the serial and should match bolt, and magaxine (nosecap is missing) if you are lucky. The "CR" numbers may be part numbers. I hope this helps!

Just a minor correction Partrick, but CR to the part number on the butt trap is the prefix to the complete part nuimber of the part and not 'component, rifle'. India still use their own part numbering system that they took over from us after independence and as a republic. It is from the old post war Ministry of Supply B1/CR system. They still use B1 as the VAOS heading for bolt action rifles, so the part numberof the butt trap in the Indian Ordnance system will be B1/CR 1336.

This old MoS numbering system together with the various suffixes of SA, GA or just A are apparent on the body sides of their Mk3 and L4 Brens, such as C1/CR 1234 MA

BahamaLure: You may or may not have found old threads regarding these Indian "308's" that question whether .308 spec ammo can be used or only 7.62 NATO. Having a fairly new condition 2A1 that I would like to shoot (but not wear out) and finding nothing conclusive in the various threads I decided to stick to the NATO spec stuff. Presumably, and according to various references, the Indians manufactured these from a higher grade steel- however Peter Laidler has questioned this "fact" and there are references that talk about relaxed proofing standards being involved. Perhaps someone out there that's shot one of these a lot could comment on the wisdom of buying a possibly well used example? Do they stand up to hundreds or thousands of rounds?

Ridolpho

I have about 6. I love them. They are a solid military rifle and not much more.

As for the Proof's etc. They are all pretty standard from what I can see. As a Sporter / Parts gun $75 to maybe 100 at most (Parting out the magazine, butt plate and bolt). To restore it would be cost prohibitive. You could find a matching number's one for far less than the parts to restore (Unless someone gives you them for free); in the end it would not really have matching parts anyways.

In 1965 they did transition to the new rear sight which that rifle has (Hence 2A1 as opposed to the 2A).

I do not shoot anything but 7.62X51 NATO. I can say they stand up to hundreds of rounds (Not thousands yet). I then resize to .308 for my other rifles. Only one really shoots well as in came to me. The others need work on the bedding. Look in the Retsorer's Corner for the one I had blued etc. or if you poked around already you may have seen it.

Surely, once you have matched the BOLT to the rifle BODY and set the rifle up correctly, set the bolt up, then renumbered the bolt etc. exactly as an Armourer woulod do with, say, a part worn bolt and nose cap, then this originality thing is academic. After all, that what we'd do every day of the week - even with No4T's and L42's. I wonder how many L42's for example have re-numered bolt bodies that the current owner would never even notice unless he took a micrometer to the arm.

Or am I missing something

Firstly - a BIG thank you to you all for the responses, I learned plenty! The rifle's big attraction to me is that it is a Lee Enfield and I have wanted to own one since I shot them extensively at school in England (Malvern) and up until now have not even come close to the chance to do so. This particular one is at the local range, taken in by the owner as an exchange. The owner knows nothing about it other than what he wants for it.

It would appear to be worth maybe $100, he wants $300 and I have a feeling that is too much considering I'd want to at least add PH sights and do a major clean up to make it usable. Bone head that I am I forgot to check of the bolt is a match, I'll do that next visit. I do not mind so much it not being a fabulous collector's military piece, might be better that way so I could use it and work on it without having much to worry about. I am definitely looking for a rifle to use rather than sit.

I might make him and offer I guess, but if he needs near the 300 out of it it may be a bust unfortunately.

Hi BahamaLure I think you have this rifle right for parts / price summary. I have also shot hundreds of rounds out of my example - it required; as others have said adjusing to close its groups and refine its reliability and performance - I was happy to place a 4" group on center at 100yards - which is pretty good for a "battle rifle". This tweaking and testing can be appealing - derives a challenge and satisfaction - sometimes frustration. I had to work out how to keep the PH5A mounted securely and hold zero due to the recoil and small footprint. I am preparing to sell the rifle to make room (the sight sold at the weekend).

There is a (near?) complete Ishapore 2A forarm on the E auction site - item number = 190768012726 Currently a pretty good price. As mentioned in previous posts Ishapore hardware comes up fairly infrequently.

Springfield sporters have the woodwork and the metal bits you need, but even at their resonable prices (see below) you will spend about $150 getting the rifle back to military configuration
e.g.
19C FOREARM, USED- INDIAN - FROM DP RIFLES 35.00
76 HANDGUARD, FRONT - USED, with ears from DP Rifle, with Plate 20.00
77 HANDGUARD, REAR - USED, with ears from DP Rifle, with clip 20.00
8B BUTTSTOCK, AUSTRALIAN, New (SHORT or NORMAL Length SPECIFY) 10.00

Thanks again Gents, have not made it back to the range yet to see which way the wind will blow.

Well the wind blew sort of my way and the seller came down far enough for me to acquire the rifle. The bolt and magazine numbers match so that's a start I guess, so, well, now what do I do?

Checked out the furniture on the auction site, that is climbing towards $100 now, not sure what a max bid on that should be?

Is there are rebuild thread to look at? Or maybe this can become one.

BahamaLure: There are lots of great repair articles/ threads on this forum- for ex. check out Peter Laidlers article on repairing worn "draws". I also found a book on accurizing Lee Enfields by forum member RJW very useful in explaining how No.1's and No.4's are "bedded".

Ridolpho

What to do is to shoot it first as is. Thing with Enfields is that one is NEVER enough, they are a herd creature. Next step would be to buy one in full military uniform to go beside it. When you are new to these things monkeying around and trying to refurbish one from sporter config is probably not teh best move - I messed a couple up by trying that and wasted money doing it. It's cheaper to to buy one in original condition to keep it company.

Learning to love it for what it is and not try to change it into what it is not does have its advantages for sure. Did some basic cleaning last night and it already looks better, just basting off the lint and dust with compressed air made a big difference!

What I do want to do is obtain some better sights, proper front and rear ring sights not the blade/groove that is there now. What would be the best way to do that?

There are various micrometer rear peep sites that bolt onto this action (SMLE compatible) - usually bolting on in place of the safety spring and requiring slightly longer fasteners - be sure they are included or accounted for in the price. I prefer the Parker Hale PH5A - an online search will provide pictures and specifications - adds great control when in good order and a nice increase in sight radius. I really had to work on the quality and torque of the fasteners to hold zero with the small PH5 footprint and the recoil of a 308. It seems that some sellers are moving the sight bodies without eyepieces to get better prices - also watch / account for this. A full functioning PH5 with fasteners and decent eyepiece can be as much as the original asking pice of this rifle on the open market - shop around!
There are lots of other equivalent sights (some folding or quick detach) such as Central of Australia. The battle sight v notch plate has to be removed (and saved) to allow the new rear sight to see past it.
A more economic way to go is the bolt on rear ring sight appeture plate to replace the vee notch in the stock rear sight position - perpetually listed on auction sites.

The front sight as a ring can be acheived through a tube sight with interchangeable elements. PH make various models - most will require attention to the dovetail mount (various ways forward) - I do not get into these as I prefer the blade front sight - Others may have specific guidance.

A while back I did see an SMLE nosecap with integral tube sight - not seperate parts welded together - it seemed purpose built - but unmarked. I have not seen one since - if anyone can shed any light. this may also get me into element tube sights!

One last check for your new rifle - check the integrety of the front hand guard - especially around the breech - the choice of wood and drying heat / service history can leave this very dry and brittle - clean, oil inside and out and refit if good. I have seen a couple of these rifles with a tell-tale gap between lower front arm and wrist - a possibility of internally crumbling wood rather than bad workmanship.

I hope this helps!

RJW's enfieldresource.com has pictures of most of the target sights that were available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To be really honest and truthfull, I don't think that the 7.62mm SMLE is accurate enough to warrant spending more that £1 on a P-H type aperture backsight. It's a bit like putting a telescopic sight onto a rifle. It'll give you a better sight picture but it won't make an inaccurate rifle accurate. Just my 2c's worth

They shoot fine with the service sights when they're in spec. I just fitted a long bolt head to one that was out of spec and shot a ragged hole at 25 yards on a 1" paster to check zero. I had to make a deflection adjustment on the front sight blade. Then I proceeded to whack my 2' Salute popper at 120 yards a half dozen times for good measure. Plenty sufficient for what it is. I was using 1969 Radway Green L2A2 ball ammo.

Thank you all again for some more great info, I had a chance yesterday to shoot the rifle for the first time, just to see what would happen. Conditions were less than ideal, temps in the low 30's and wind gusting into the high 30's. It was cold enough for the bolt to have trouble sliding home too.

The only rounds the shop had that would fit were Winchester .308 and I found it impossible to cycle them using the magazine, the bullet tips would catch on the lip at the front of the magazine preventing them from loading into the barrel. The rifle fired and ejected them fine when shot singly. The obvious fix is to file down the lip at the front of the magazine. Finding longer rounds is not going to be practical so is there any reason not to take a file to it? Here's the pictures.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2bda9db1-1.jpg

the offending lip-
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b19174bd-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...523f5d45-1.jpg

Length of round-
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...84d9d2a6-1.jpg

I did not even try to shoot a group with the wind so bad, but still feel I want to do at least something to improve the sights.

What about parts to attach a sling for shooting in the prone position?

You won't find a replacement easily when you destroy it by filing it. It just needs adjusting keeping in mind that feeding and ejection on these particular rifles was never great to start with.

So just bend it little by little until it allows the round to slide up and into the breach?

Smooth jaw pliers and dummy rounds are your friend. Bear in mind that part of the problem may be the rear feed lips too not just the front ones. Make sure the magazine snaps tight into the mag well. I've seen some that were so sloppy there wasn't anything you could do short of welding up the rib on the back and starting over again. I've said before that i always considered these rifles to be "Barney Fife" issue. Appropriate since you have Mayberry, NC as your address. "Here's your rifle Sahib. Here's your bullet. Put it in your pocket!"

Yes I get that this is no collector's piece and little more than something to learn on and play with, I am not too bothered about that. I'm sure Barney would have used it without complaint! (I really am in Mt Airy, NC the town Mayberry was modeled after)

My goal is little more than making it all work ok and shooting something that resembles a group at 100yds. After that I might try for a deer should the opportunity ever arise.

It'll work for you.

BahamaLure: I seem to remember episodes where Deputy Fife was issued a revolver but NO AMMO. Do get yourself some dummy rounds to use as you adjust the lips on the magazine- very handy. If you can't find any down there, Collectors Source in Canada usually has some and they will ship pieces like that to the USA. I think you're getting good advice about the quality of these later Indian rifles- I have one that's in about as close to new condition as you will find but it's still got a wierd look and feel to it. You may still want to try a peep sight even if you're not looking for target-rifle accuracy as they are a pleasure to shoot with. I have both Parker Hale and Central sights on No.1's and nice thing is they don't require permanent modifications. Good luck with the rifle and hopefully it will get you hooked on SMLE's.

Ridolpho

Hi BahamaLure - nice work shooting in the low temps with wind - I prefer less than perfect conditions! I will tolerate heavy rain and near freezing conditons - keeps the range nice and quiet and the "battle rifle" does not mind! The subject lip looks like a high protruding front plate in the mag body - you could choose to file that out of the way - this action may have been executed when in service - or try small bend as advised. Either way it should feed and cycle when home. These were built for FMJ tho and they will cycle better. I also stay away from steel case, PMC make affordable reloadable brass. Sometimes I have to settle for soft points and accept slow purposefull loading - lead is a PITA to clean off your ramp! You coud also pick up an aftermarket 10 round box othe internet and enjoy fitting and tweaking that instead - then preserve the original box - especially if numbers matching to the rifle -orignal Ishapore mags seem to run 60 -80 around my parts. I enjoyed my Ishapore enormously - definatley a rifle to take for a walk in the woods - no worries about ruining its looks! Your next Enfields can be lookers with stamps, features and history. You will likely get a lot of interest in the Ishapore at the range, I trade turns with range colleagues and have gotten to shoot K98s, M1s and the like in turn for a go on the "Enfield"

Someone asked about magazine fitting. If you all hang on a week or so I am most of the way through one of those pictorial essays of how to repair the back-strap as we used to do them on a bulk scale at our Base Workshops and then PROPERLY fit the magazine to the rifle, both at the front magazine stop face AND at the rear strap.

I gave the magazine lip some love and it now has a slight ramp that improved things greatly. Without doubt the soft lead tips are no help at all, I will ask the range for some better rounds with no steel cases or lead tips. Other than that the rifle continues to clean up, I built a custom rack to hold it while cleaning. Will shoot again in the new year. All the best for 2013!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...46206f1d-1.jpg

Is it me or is that paint on the metal? What about the bridge over the bolt, looks like it is slotted for some kind of sight or scope mount?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...455d3d53-1.jpg

the wrist band is badly scratched, looks like on purpose with sandpaper for some reason, pity that.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fe089be1-1.jpg

BahamaLure: Yes, that's black paint. On my 2A1, which appears quite original and lightly used, there are already big ugly flakes breaking away to expose bare metal. The "bridge" is the charger bridge which accepts stripper clips for quick loading. Yours pretty much resembles the original ones which first appeared on the No. I mkIII. I'll try to upload a couple of side shots of my 2A1 later today so you can see what a non-sporterized one looks like.

Ridolpho

As promised here's a few shots of my 2A1. Pretty much original although now that I look at it closely again I suspect it's fresh from some kind of re-fit. The forend, while numbered to this action/ barrel has a previous number marked on it and has two matching patches either side of the receiver ring. The wood is of an unknown variety to me- waxy and probably soft. You can see the black paint and how it's flaking off in places. Not bad looking from a distance but up close the forend is quite crudely shaped and could never be mistaken for an older one. I bought it because I'm trying to get as wide a time range of Lee Enfields as possible. My time-span now runs from 1896 to this 1965 (second newsest is a 1960 Pakistani No.4 Mk2 which is of dramatically higher quality).

Ridolpho

thanks Ridolpho, is there a thread somewhere on how to disassemble the rifle?

I would also love to extend the stock some too...

Thanks also to Henry for offering me a speed loading clip to go with the rifle :thup:

BahamaLure: You could probably glean the disassembly procedure from numerous threads but I would suggest you invest in at least one book- "For Collectors Only, British Enfield rifles, Volume 1, 3rd ed., revised, SMLE (No.1) Rifles MkI and MkIII" by Charles R. Stratton, North cape Publications. Great little inexpensive book available all the time on e-bay. There's a picture of a 2A or 2A1 on the cover. If you get bit by the bug and acquire more of these rifles it will come in handy.

Ridolpho

Here are photos of my old 2A - all numbers matching - many hours of tuning and learning - I hope they help you and others enjoy these rifles.

Took the Ishapore out yesterday just because I could, went much better than the first time too! Shot the remainder of the steel case rounds at 25 yds, made a good 2" group with some key-holing so that was encouraging. We dug around the range stores and found some better ammunition I bought this box, plus they had some match rounds that were priced way higher and not what I need at this point. What do the codes on this box tell me?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c18cdd1e-1.jpg

These rounds cycled better out of the magazine, but still not perfect, the left side does not work as well as the right for some reason, tinkering still to do?

147 grain M80 ball made by CBC in Brazil.

Had a better shoot yesterday, found out some stuff -

This CBC M80 ammunition is a pain to eject the spent casings, or is it the firing chamber that needs attention? Had to palm slap the bolt handle hard to drag the stuck casings out. The steel case ones I used first did not have this issue. I seem to remember back in the 80's seeing guys shooting rifles by Swing having this same issue all the time.

100yd shoot, first 10 rounds missed the 9" paper plate target.... was sure I am a better shot that that??? Then checked the rear sight and it was set at 600yds, hmmmmmmm, sure I did not do that on purpose so I return it to as far below 200 as it will go and try again. Hit the plate this time at least but with just 1/5. Look again at the rear site and it is at 300yds. Turns out that with every round the sight jumps forward so without returning it to the bottom after every round it creeps ever upwards. For the last 10 shots I returned it back after every one and finally started to see a result on the targets, nothing to yell about yet but its coming. All were center or slightly off to the right, and one nice cluster of 3 in a 2" group.

I am REALLY not liking this blade sight arrangement and even taking into consideration the feeling I get here that the Ishapore 2A1 is not very accurate and 'Barney Fife's' choice of rifle I remain sure it can shoot well if given some love. I beg for guidance to fit proper ring foresight and an aperture rear!

Alan: You'll find aperture sights for sale on e-bay just about all the time. I've bought them from Australia, Great Britain, and from right here in Canada. Some of the most common for the No.1 MkIII appear to be Parker Hale (PH5a) and Australian "Central". I have both but like the Central as the entire sight can be easily removed leaving only a low profile base on the rifle for storage. Extremely easy to install. Have a look on the "Lee Enfield Online Knowledge Library" in the "stickies" on this forum where there are two articles concerning these sights. These sights due seem to suite my eyesight rather well and are, of course, very solid and stable.

Ridolpho

After long searches for PH ring sights I am giving up that chase, plus removing the blade from the barrel is also problematic.

I bought a B-Square part that was supposed to just screw on and that was a no go as the rifle lacks the rear mounting holes for it.

I found a local gunsmith and after a long discussion he's been given free reign to do as he sees fit to mount a scope. I do not see that I can lose here, the rifle is not worth enough if the mount project does not work. I think it just might though!

I shot a couple times over the summer and started to actually see results despite the blade sights jumping and what not, there is still hope...... :madsmile:

If I was you Bahama, I'd fix what you've got before you go putting telescopes etc onto your rifle. A telescope ain't going to cure the what looks suspiciously like a bulged chamber and it certainly ain't going to make your rifle OR you shoot any better. In fact, fitting a telescope and mount to an already suspect rifle is a pure waste of money in my humble opinion. Fixing the duff backsight slide will cost you about 50cents. If you want any sort of accuracy, what you got ain't never going to put you up on the leaders board

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BahamaLure

. I beg for guidance to fit proper ring foresight and an aperture rear!

---

This is one sow's ear that will never be a silk purse. Use this one "as is" and save up for/ keep looking for one thar's decently dressed and not half naked.