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I have a Gew 88 action that I am going to use for a European style sporting rifle conversion. My question is how to treat the theads for the barrel shroud. My guess is the that the old German gunsmiths made a spacer to cover the threads or just cut the old threaded part of the barrel shoud off and used that. Was the spacer threaded or just a simple collar? All I have is the action so I'll need to machine my own spacer. Thanks! Salt Flat
Most of the '88 sporting rifles I've seen have had rather sculpted barrels. Probably not the military barrel at all.
I apologize in advance for the endless repeat of the same message
... but these days, turning a viable old service rifle into a sporter does not make sense ballistically or financially.
Making a sporter has been aptly described as "taking a 200 dollar rifle and spending another 200 to turn it into a 100 dollar rifle". There are plenty of sporters around, available for peanuts.
But this is 2012 not 1912, and the barrel shrouds are usually the most decrepit component of a Gew.88. If the barrel shroud is in good condition, then it is worth more than you might think to someone else who is refurbishing a Gew.88. Chopping a good barrel shroud would be wilful destruction of 50-80 dollars* to save making a 5 dollar sleeve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt Flat
Of course, it is your rifle, and you can use it in any legal fashion you choose. If it is a good shooter, I would suggest that you keep it as it is, or sell it as it is. If it is not a good shooter (which would raise the question: why turn it into a "sporter"?) then it will be worth more parted out than as a sporter.
Please consider these points before carving up something which could be VALUABLE to someone else.
*Over here, that would be euros, of course**.
** Based on experience, not hearsay.
I believe there's nothing to save. Might as well have some fun with it! Since there's no barrel, "why would a spacer be needed?" is the next question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt Flat
Thanks jmoore, I really must learn to read the question before providing an answer!
- Now I am also puzzled about the barrel.
Salt Flat, please let us know exactly which parts you have!
The Gew 88 has an external thread on the face of the action. The barrel shroud screws onto this external thread. It's a liittle hard to describe. I'll post a picture later today.
Here's a picture of the external threads. (This is not my exact receiver but rather a representative picture) What I have is the compete action which includes the complete bolt, trigger gaurd assembly, trigger assy, bolt stop etc. No barrel or shroud or stock.
Salt Flat, old time gunsmiths doing sporter conversions on these rifles back in the day usually cut off the threads on the barrel shroud and slipped this down over the barrel shank to cover the threads on the front of the receiver ring. It's really the easiest way to achieve a clean sporter appearance. Oh yes, I think I know where there's a spare beat up barrel shroud off a wrecked Commission 88 rifle you might be able to purchase quite nominally if you are interested.
Good luck!
You might want to get some ideas by going to Holt's Auctioneers, in Wolverton and looking at the archived sales results. They often have very high quality pictures and I've seen quite a number of '88s that are "old time" converts to sporters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barbarossa
One of those things that's so obvious it's easy to miss. That's my excuse.:madsmile: Plus it's probably been ten years since I last pulled the shroud from either of the '88s on hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt Flat
Got it now! You don't have anything that could be considered a restorable rifle. So there is no question of losing an original. But barrel and stock will not be cheap if they are any good for shooting. So why not just sell the parts?
If you really want to do it for the exercise, and can get hold of a barrel shroud that has become useless (the tubes are often rusted through), then I think you will find that the basic tube is soft-soldered on to the threaded portion with the lug. Unsolder the wrecked tube, but do not saw off the lug, as it takes the front trigger guard screw!
As to the barrel, the thread for the Gew.88 is probably the same as the "small ring" Mausers, such as the M1896 Swede. Please check this very carefully with a gunsmith before proceeding, but if so, it increases your chances of finding a good barrel enormously!
Gentlemen, Thanks for the replies. I think I'm clear now on what is needed.
Salt Flat
Your post got me curious. I followed my own advice and checked out Holts, who had an auction today. Check Lots 1152 and 1156 to see several different ways to handle the thread issue. I'm sure that there will be lots of other '88s if you go back to the Archived catalogs and review their pictures. These are often in very high definition, so give you alot of info.
The normal thread for small-ring Mausers is usually given as 0.98" x 12 tpi WHITWORTH thread. I have also occasionally seen the diameter given as 1" - which is probably just a rounding of the 0.98" - and I suspect that the 0.98" - a very odd size - is also a rounding of 25 mm (0.9842519...). It is extremely difficult to measure a thread diameter to that degree of accuracy, unless you are using proper form gauges. ***
What may vary from one type of rifle to another is the length of thread, something that a gunsmith can deal with. The Whitworth thread has an included flank angle of 55 degrees. But considering that people in the US appear to happily use barrels with 60 degree straight-flank threads in Mauser actions, I am probably worrying about nothing.
***Note for Bubba and his friends: simply measuring over the threads with a slide gauge or micrometer is not accurate enough, as the rounding of the top of the thread will lead to a measurement that is less than the true form-gauge diameter, and will vary according to the cutting equipment that has been used. Machinery's Handbook has detailed information on thread measurement using gauges. I have the gold-leaf leather bound edition of 1914, so I am bang up to date on mechanical measurement!
Good tip on the Holt's Auction site. I haven't seen that one before. Lot 1152 is very much what I would like to end up with. I picked up an amazing stock blank recently but I'm not sure if I will use it for this rifle or not. It has a very dark color with rippled tiger striping. As for the barrel I'm still investigating that. As Peter has noted, small ring Mauser barrels have been utilized by others. I saw one Gew 88 that was fitted with a 6.5 X55 Swedish Mauser barrel. I a have a machinist and designer background and have fit several barrels over the years so I have many options regarding barrels.
Gents,
I was a frequent poster on the Gew88.com forum.
We had folks post about doing conversions to these. One thing to remember is that the pressure should be kept low, so I would go with a gentle round, nothing "elephant size".
I do believe they were small ring actions. Walther Lothar was listing barrels (in true 8mm) for around $200.00. Whereas Numrich had their "new"/ probably Chinese surplus barrels for a lot less. It is hard to justify buying a barrel, since they were generally sold for less than $60.00 without a bolt.
Generally the recent crop of Gew88's were pretty trashed. It is still common to find bare receivers for little money. Even the occasional stock pops up.
My criteria for "restoration" of these, is if there is a uniqe Serial Number/ year, or if it tickles my fancy.
I have also made a few of my own barrel shrouds. It does sound like this gentleman has everything needed to "restore" the rifle, if he so wishes.... but it would be an expensive restoration due to a missing barrel..... On less you have a pristine Gew88, generally they don't seem to bring much......
If I think about it... I might post my Gew88 early year Chrome model for you to look at! ;)
I think the Gew 88 action builds some of the sweetest looking sporters out there, to each his own. This weekend I watched a 88 sporter go for 2,400.00. No engraving, it was put together by Kreighof. Several fine German companies built these up into sporters, I have one myself. I also have a Guild gun that resembles a Mauser Model 1871 military rifle but it is a sporter with an octagon barrel. I want to build one up myself and have been looking for a donor action.
If it were mine I would chuck the action up in a lathe and remove all those threads in front of the action. They servve no purpose on a sporting rifle at all. Most 88 trigger gaurds will handle doubel set triggers too, plenty of room in there for them.
Pleas post some pictures of your progress. Also look on the German collectors web site and Double Gun, they have a rifle section too that discusses these.
Mike
Mwhite, I agree, there was some fantastic gunsmithing done on those old German and Austrian sporters. I really haven't gotten too far with mine yet. I'm still collecting up parts. I have a complete action and picked up an incredible marbled dark walnut stock blank at a recent gunshow. There are receivers, trigger guards and bolts out there but the bolt heads are hard to find. Post some pictures of your sporters if you like. Regarding the external threads on the front of the receiver, I don't think you can machine them off because you would also loose about half the internal theads that hold the barrel on. After looking at this for awhile I think it would be pretty easy to machine a ring with an internal thread to cover this threaded portion. It could have a square shoulder that would look better than the rounded collar made from an original barrel shroud. Salt Flat
Salt Flat: Where are you in the project now? You should have a nice haul of parts. Springfield Sporters HAD bolt bodies a few years ago, don't know about today. Bolt heads are a different story.
Calif-Steve, I'm just about done with the gathering phase. I got a receiver and trigger guard/ magazine from Old West Scrounger a few months ago. Then I found a bolt without the bolt head on Ebay. Believe it or not when I was first studying pictures of 88 parts, i realized that I had a bolt head in a spare parts box out in my shop. I got that box of parts from a friend of my Dad's in about 1963 when I was 13 years old!. I looked at that bolt head many times over the years and wondered what it fit. So the action is complete. I picked up a great barrel (as you know!) but now I don't know if I can bring myself to shorten it as it looks too good to cut! I picked up a stock blank at a recent gun show. So it looks like I'm getting closer to starting. I hate to say it but I'm pretty slow to get these things done. (Too many projects goin'). I'll post some pictures though as I make the stock. Salt Flat