Steyr m-95 with weird chamber...Please help

Hello!
I'm really at my wits end with this one.

I came across this Steyr m-95.
But I can't figure out what it's chambered for.
The bolt is for rimless cases.
There are no stampings indicating a rechamber.

The thing that really threw me is the 0.48" shoulder dia.
The apprx 1.7" shoulder ht is of course a stumper too.

In the pic I included the 8x50r to show shoulder angle comparison and length.

The center brass is what I made from 284 win brass and has been fired in the gun 3 times.

The case on the right is new 284 win brass.

The body of the 284 win is just about right on for what's needed.

Any clue what I have here?

Thanks a heck of a lot.

John

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I take it that it's still in the original 8mm Steyr barrel but the bolt has been converted to a rimless configuration. I will take a stab at this an say it may have been converted to 8x57. Many of the Hurgarian models of the same rifle were converted to 8x57 during WW2. The Austrian M95 has a bore diameter the same as the 8x57 while the Hungarian version does not. Just a thought on my part.

Thanks for the reply Bruce.

That was one of my first thoughts too.
The 8x57 has too skinny of case body and is too long at the shoulder.

The bore does appear to be original. And measures for the .323 bullet.

Thanks again!

I see you've used a 284 Winchester case for forming. Closest thing to that would be the 7.5 Swiss necked up to accept your 8mm bullets. 7.5x55 is small at the shoulder though about the right length. Maybe someone wished to use cases that had been fired in a K31. Shoulder would be about the right diameter after that. Closer than 284, but still not right.

Hi andiarisaka. Thanks for the reply. I necked up a 6.5x55 for a test....sorta surprised it didn't crack..what a bulge..lol.
Like you said the s-length was about right..just too narrow.

What really gets me is the rounded shoulder this case/chamber has. It looks pretty similar to the 15 deg angle the 8x50r has...just not quite.
If nothing else I'd like to figure out what type of die I could pick up to at least get the shoulder close out of a 284 win. I've thought about a 8x66 mauser FL die and shortening it to the needed length. ( little by little with a surface grinder.) But those dies don't seem to grow on trees either.

The more I look online and in the books the more I think this is some kind of wildcat.

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------

Hey andiarisaka.. You just prompted me to learn something. I've always thought the 7.5 swiss was a necked up 6.5x55. guess not! Thanks!

The only other rimless military case I see with that head size was 8x59 Breda. Of course it's too long, and probably fairly scarce. 7.5 x55 has a .496 rim would that fit the boltface? CH4D can make dies from your fired cases. Not cheaply, but probably about what you'd spend trying other dies.

It would be snug. The bolt face seems to be the same size as my Yugo 8x57. The 284 fits fairly well with it's .473" dia. The 6.5 swiss barely fit with it's .479" dia. However the swiss's tightness also came from the rim being quite a bit thicker. That breda is an interesting alternative. I'll be giving it some thought for sure.

Thank you for the help!

This is my first "what the heck is this" rifle....kinda fun...kinda maddening..lol

I did a little research on just the Bullet Diameter, to see if any custom caliber or wildcat stuff came up, and interestingly enough, the rifle picture in the atricle (I will post link at the bottom) is very much so similar to your rifle I thought you may find this very interesting, and perhaps lead you in the right direction with your search for the caliber etc... (QUOTE):
Paul Mossiers Model 88 Custom 8mm S Bore.323
Paul Mossiers Model 88 Custom 8mm S Bore.323 The action on this rifle is clean with strong case colour, cross hatched forward ring, extends on to barrel and also at rear of bolt, all original German proofs with no reproof, double set trigger, strong original blue on magazine/ floor plate. The barrel is a full length octagonal with a three quarter length integral rib, top of rib and barrel are hand filed and very attractive. We have cerrosafed the chamber and barrel to find it is a standard .323 diameter, S bore for readily available 8MM Mauser ammunition. The stock is a pistol grip with good finish and chequering, engraved crest plate, case coloured steel butt,14" lop, 7lbs 13oz. The scope is a steel tub with brass fittings that is adjustable and mounted on original quick detach claw mounts, scope is period correct to the rifle and appears to be original. 0207571 S155 $3100.00
Category: Rifles / Bolt Action / Continental

$3,100.00
Listed: 11/08/2012
SCROLL DOWN THIS LINK TO SEE THE RIFLE:323 Rifle - Bing Images

certainly a pretty one!

The cartrige search is a very interesting topic but I cant believe that none has mentioned what a lovley rifle it is. Nice scroll work.

Thanks Hooked. I find it to be pretty classy too. I wish I knew the history of this one for sure. Was it engraved when new? later on? Seems odd to have that work done on a rifle with beat up wood.
...who knows...lol

How about the 8x54 Krag-Jorgensen?

Hey Bruce. Yeppers, tried one of those..first "obsolete" round I ever made. Felt cool to do! Tried firing one ( sandbags and string pulled trigger :slap:)
Anyway, that's how I learned I need a fatter bodied case. Watta buldge!
Thanks

Zradix, I do not think that the 1.7" given for the new shoulder height is accurate enough.
The shoulder height for the 8x50R is 1.51", and the shoulder height of the 8x50R case in the photo is almost as high as the point indicated for the mystery cartridge. The difference is surely not as much as 0.19" ? The new shoulder is a long way short of the 1.775" of the .284 Winchester. It is much closer to the 8x50R.
And in fact, the shoulder height for the 8x56RM30S ( the so-called Hungarian Mannlicher cartridge) is 1.54 in the book I have.

I know this is a bit tricky to measure, but I suspect that this is a case of double conversion:

First - most of the M95s were indeed converted by the Austrians and Hungarians to the 8x56R. (The original 8x50s are now comparatively rare, and command a higher price in the collecting market)

Second - whoever bought the converted rifle discovered that the cases for the 8x56R are rare and costly. So the bolt was swapped for one from the later WWII German conversion to 8x57 rimless, in order to use the 284 cases - as you have now discovered.

This may sound like a wild(cat) theory, but it is the only solution I have found that fits the observed facts. Anything other than the 8x56R, whether rimmed or rimless, is either too wide at the base or too narrow at the shoulder.

Please check the dimensions as accurately as you can, and post them again!

Hi Patrick.
You have some interesting ideas. I certainly admit I have a hard time figuring where the shoulder is on this case. It has such a gently rounded shoulder.
I've included some pics. One shows my ?? brass next to an 8x50r. The others are the brass in question with the calipers set at 1.6",1.65",& 1.7".

I would also like to add that the 8x50r brass I have, which is formed from 7.62x64r by buffalo arms and has not been shot, has a shoulder ht of 1.563".
I hadn't measured that brass till just now. I'd dare say it wasn't made to specs....however the head of this brass does have a domed shape to it.
I do get 1.51" from the inside of the rim to the shoulder...wonder if this is bad brass...?:confused:


Thank you all for your help on this.:thup:

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I think you really need to do a chamber casting to find out what the true dimensions are with this conversion. Just might stop a lot of headaches for all involved with it.lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zradix

It has such a gently rounded shoulder.

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It certainly does. In fact, there is such a curious ripple at the top of the shoulder that I wonder if a proper chamber reamer was used at all.

Caution: If you make a chamber cast, this ripple may make it well-nigh impossible to get the cast out again without driving it from the muzzle end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Zradix, I do not think that the 1.7" given for the new shoulder height is accurate enough.
The shoulder height for the 8x50R is 1.51", and the shoulder height of the 8x50R case in the photo is almost as high as the point indicated for the mystery cartridge. The difference is surely not as much as 0.19" ? The new shoulder is a long way short of the 1.775" of the .284 Winchester. It is much closer to the 8x50R.
And in fact, the shoulder height for the 8x56RM30S ( the so-called Hungarian Mannlicher cartridge) is 1.54 in the book I have.

I know this is a bit tricky to measure, but I suspect that this is a case of double conversion:

First - most of the M95s were indeed converted by the Austrians and Hungarians to the 8x56R. (The original 8x50s are now comparatively rare, and command a higher price in the collecting market)

Second - whoever bought the converted rifle discovered that the cases for the 8x56R are rare and costly. So the bolt was swapped for one from the later WWII German conversion to 8x57 rimless, in order to use the 284 cases - as you have now discovered.

This may sound like a wild(cat) theory, but it is the only solution I have found that fits the observed facts. Anything other than the 8x56R, whether rimmed or rimless, is either too wide at the base or too narrow at the shoulder.

Please check the dimensions as accurately as you can, and post them again!

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I was kinda thinking along the same lines... The fire formed case shoulder looks a lot like my 8x56R brass from my M95 converted... A LOT. Very gentle and sloping. The 8x56R is about the only thing that comes to mind that the shoulder looks like that that comes quickly to my mind.

And maybe someone decided to see what else they could use (rimless) to get cheap brass, and changed the bolt head to match...

Also agree on a chamber cast. Might also slug the bbl and see if it is really .323 or the 8x56R .329-.330...

Thank you.
I did slug the barrel. It'll take the .323. Actually could stand to use a gas check type bullet as it seems a tad oversized.
I've recently looked at some 8x56r brass. Needless to say I wasn't overjoyed to see they weren't close enough in size to work.

I do have some wax I can make a cast from. Just not looking forward to the mess I'm sure I'll create as I don't know the proper way to do it.
Guess I have some more reading to do.

Have to admit, with the cost of custom dies and all, I'm seriously thinking of having the chamber reamed to .284 Win. and making life simple.
Cost a bit more up front. After speaking with a couple smiths, seems $200 is average. ( that sound reasonable to you guys?).
At least I won't have to go through the fire forming process. Might have to run lighter loads...

Thanks again for your help and insight. You all are really helping me out here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zradix

Have to admit, with the cost of custom dies and all, I'm seriously thinking of having the chamber reamed to .284 Win. and making life simple. Cost a bit more up front. After speaking with a couple smiths, seems $200 is average. ( that sound reasonable to you guys?).

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If the dimensions are usable, I would be inclined to agree that a professional reaming to .284 will be more satisfying than eternal fiddling with wierd cases.

Firstly, a Nice engraving job.
Next Chamber dimensions, Bolt head, Bore dimensions...etc

1.The suggestion that the Bolt head has been changed to that of a "M95M" ( Yugo conversion) could be feasible...one must Photograph the "free" Bolt head and compare it to a M95M Bolt head of Known provenance.

2. Chamber casting is a MUST, either Hard Wax or Cerro-metal. Tap out with cleaning rod if necessary.

3. "Bore" the Dimensions of Both the 8x50R and 8x56R barrels are as follows: Bore .315" (8.0mm) Grooves .329-.330". The 8x50R used a .324FMJRN Diameter Bullet, whilst the 8x56R used a .329" diameter FMJBT.
The .324 RNFMJ "upset" its base on firing, filling the grooves ( "Minie effect") and providing a gas seal. The .329FMJBT needs to be full groove diameter, because BTs don't "upset" well, and a .324 BT would suffer "windage". THis was common practice in Round Nosed Cartridge rifles on the 1885-1910 period...the Bullet was actual;ly less in diameter to the Grooves, to reduce jacket friction and metal fouling..." Base Upset Obturation" , initially applied to nearly all Austrian-made Firearms, and also variously applied to other European Rifles using cylindrcal jacketed projectiles. This all changed once Boat-tailed projectiles were introduced.( 1898-1911).

Until all these questions are settled, this is a case of a fine rifle stuffed around by a "bubba's "idea of ammunion supply.

Regards,
DocAV