Cast bullet loads??

I have really been enjoying shooting my carbines a lot lately, but at $26 a box of 50, it gets expensive.

I have about 600-700 rounds of M1 Carbine brass, and I have access to Bear Creek's 115 moly coated cast bullets for a good price. I have seen some loads listed for 2400 powder (10-12 grains) for the 115 grain bullet. I load 2400 for some of my other calibers, so I have it on hand. Anyone use cast bullets in their carbines? Anyone use 2400 in their loads?

I figure I can compensate for the lower velocity by using the 200 yard setting instead of the 100/150.

I used cast gas check exclusively but always with 4227 IMR. I couldn't use a measure, I had to scoop load. I sure shot lots of them though. I think 2400 is the recommended powder. I'd just see what Cartridges of the World says about it.

I found a load with 7 grains of Unique at 1560 FPS with a 115 cast. It would be cheap to shoot, if it cycles the action. I already have 2 or 3 pounds of Unique, since that is what I load my 44-40 with for CAS shooting. Also found one with 12 Grains of 2400 gives 1750, and is supposed to cycle excellent. The nice thing about the moly coated Bear Creek Supply bullets is that they don't lead, even without a gas check, at reasonable velocity.

Bear Creek's moly are $60/1,000. I found a source for copper plated bullets that will load to standard velocities for $79/1,000. I might go that way, and just load 14.5 grains of WW296. Should print about the same as R-P factory, at least at plinking ranges.

Given the choice at the prices you state, I'd shoot the copper. I make my own so I just go with lead. I'm not so sure you'll get happy results with the Unique loads. I think I had less than stellar results when I used it. Of course if you work through a handful at a time with lots of notes you may be able to come up with something.

If you drive the plated bullets to normal velocity in a carbine they quite often strip in the barrel leave a large amount of the copper plating and it does not add to the accuracy of the round. Most companies will tell you to keep the velocity in the 1600 fps range to prevent this. A good gas check bullet can be loaded to military spec with no problems at all. Non gas checked bullets should be kept in the same range as the plated rounds. Accuracy is quite good at the lower velocities.

For pistols , yes . Carbine bullets start with a more undersized than normal lead core and are left in longer to bring them into spec with a thicker jacket . Berry's says 1950 fps max.
Chris

I recall asking about Berry .30 plated once before.
As of today I, along with family have shot ~ 1,000 rds.
1 time after cleaning I found a few specks of plating, by far less than lead fouling would leave after just a couple mags.
Loaded my Berry plated with 15 gr 296.
Do not recall a problem with accuracy.

This link will give a reply by:
Jay R. Phillips
Berry's MFG

Jay is a member here and always open to questions.
Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Berry's MFG Bullets ?

A Possible Problem,
At the local Gun Shows, many have bulk 'Plated' bullets for sale. Seems like all claim they are Berrys. No way to know that I know of, if they aren't in a original package.

Charlie-Painter777

12 gr 2400 with 110 gr plain base and 115gr gas checked. 12.5 with the 130 gr plain base. Works fine no leading problems with any of them.

I push the copper plated slugs to full speed with 15 grains of 4227...same results as copper jackets rounds for everything...accuracy and fouling....Charlie

I worked up loads starting at 14.0 grains of W-296 and/or H-110 until I found something that seemed to work right in both my Inland and my brother's. I ended up at 15.0 grains for the FMJ and 14.7 grains for the copper plated. Everything I researched indicated that the copper plated bullet is a bit softer and that results in a bit higher pressure. I know you can't really tell everything by the looks of the cases and primers, but I what I saw agreed with what I had read. Same thing on the 45 ACP with lead or copper plated vs. FMJ - I use a bit less powder with the plated. If I could get a hold of some WC 820, I would like to try that in the carbine, that's what the GI rounds were using in the later stuff. I did see a recommendation for 14.1 grains of Lil' Gun with plated bullets for the carbine, but the local sporting goods store doesn't stock it. It's reportedly a bit cleaner burning than W-296/H-110. - Bob

Thanks for the info, guys. I think plated will be the way to go. After I get a barrel and BCG for my next AR build (before they get extinct), I'll accumulate the stuff to reload for the carbine. The weather is awful, so I won't be doing any shooting for awhile.

Well, I have dies (including a LEE factory crimp die) case trimmer, and 1,000 plated 110/.308 bullets inbound. I already have WW296, 2400, and Unique, and 500 small rifle primers. I think I will tumble my brass and check length while I am waiting for the dies and bullets. I'll try the 14.7 of 296 with the plated bullets, and see what I get. I may try some Unique loads, too, just because I have a lot of it on hand.

Try this article:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByF...%20Carbine.pdf

I use 11 of Alliant 2400 under the 115 Moly Bear bullet. Just watch the seat depth so that the bolt fully closes, some of the cast have a bit wider ogive and need deeper seating. You can try Unique but pressures will be too high if you try to operate the action. Like the article says, it is good for using the Carbine as a "bolt action", you will have to cycle it manually. Stay with 2400, 4227, 296/110, WC820 and you will have a happy little rifle.

Dave

The vendor I found that had the plated bullets fizzled out. I got an email telling me that it will be 3 months or so until they actually have bullets to sell, even though they processed my payment. They actually tried to get me to send another $12 for shipping now, even thought it will be 3 months until shipping. Needless to say I requested a refund. Rather sorry way to do business, showing them available, then after getting payment, tell you it will be three months or more...

I did find 1,000 of the Bear Creek locally. I picked up another pound of 2400, to add to the half pound I had. I also picked up another 1,000 small rifle magnum primers to go with the 500 i had. Figure I might as well grab enough to load for awhile with the hysteria being what it is.

Wineman, I will try the 11 grains of 2400 load. I assume it operates the action OK, as it should be almost 1750 FPS. I am guessing I will have to use the 200 yard setting on the rear sight, instead of the 100/150 yard setting due to the slower speed and slightly heavier bullet. As long as it is close at 100, that is fine, since I never really shoot farther than that, anyway. Do you know what velocity you are getting from that load? My experience with Bear Creek moly bullets in 44-40 CAS loads is their velocity is slightly more than traditional lead bullets in 44-40.

Loaded up 50 rounds of ammo with Bear Creek 115 grain .309 moly bullet and 11 grains of Alliant 2400, the load Wineman suggested. OAL length is 1.625 inch. That is as long as I could go not to have the chubbier bullet ogive hit the throat/rifling. I'll take them to work this week and do a test fire for function before I load up more. I am also going to load some plated 110s (when I can get them) with 14.5 of WW296.

I was just checking my ballistic calculator, and at 100 yards the drop of the 115 lead at 1725 fps is less than an inch more than the 110 FMJ/JSP at 1925 fps. I am mildly (and happily) surprised.

I used a LEE four position turret press with auto index. First die was LEE carbide sizing/de-capping die, second was a LEE drop through powder charging die, third was LEE seating/taper crimp, and fourth was LEE factory crimp die. The taper die was set to just flatten the case against the bullet, and the factory crimp was set to just barely crimp. The factory crimp die is MUCH more forgiving of case length, but I think it crimps a little too much if you fully engage it. I use a LEE auto disk powder drop. The 2400 meters very well, with a test of 6 charges show no more than + or - .2 grains (11.0, 11.1, 11.2, 10.9, 11.0). Certainly good enough for plinking ammo. Bold edited!

OK, I'll bite. How are you measuring grains in hundredths? +/- a tenth is the best I can do. - Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

OK, I'll bite. How are you measuring grains in hundredths? +/- a tenth is the best I can do. - Bob

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HAHAHAHA! UGH! I meant .1, etc. Using an RCBS scale. and .1 is what I meant. The one charge that listed as .2 over, was actually a heavy .1 grain. It would have been 10.9, not 10.99, also. Teach me to hurry. Basically + or - a tenth of a grain.

Heck, I was hoping you had found some new super accurate scale! I have a conventional RCBS, and a PACT digital. Each one has it's advantages and disadvantages, but I think +/- a tenth is the accuracy spec. on each. It's frustrating to use a powder trickler with the PACT - because you have to keep waiting for it to update. With the digital, you can't see when you are approaching your goal - easy to overshoot it. The tip on checking scales from LEE's Reloading Manual is a handy one - cut small 1/4" - 5/16" squares from copy or printer paper (.004") and then add them to your powder tray one at a time. You should see about a tenth grain increase on your scale with each piece of paper if the scale is responding properly. - Bob

CAST BULLET UPDATE:

I shot 50 rounds of the 115 Bear Creek / 11 grains Alliant 2400 loads tonight. Feeding was 100% from a USGI "J" 30 round magazine. I really could not tell any difference in feel of the action cycling between the 1725 fps 115 grainers and the 1950 fps ball rounds. I was mainly just checking for function and feeding before I load more, and was only shooting at 25 yards using headlights for light, leaning through the open passenger side door of my patrol Wrangler 4X4, resting on the door through the open window .

Best 5 shot group could be covered with a 50 cent piece! Horizontally, it prints identical to 110 FMJ Remington factory. No surprise was that it centered vertically about 3/4" lower (slower, heavier bullets print lower). I am guessing my assumption is correct that I will have to use the 200 yard setting instead of the 100/150 for 100 yard shooting. The only problem I had was two failures to fire. 2/50 dead primers would be unusual, so I looked closely at the rounds. They looked like light primer strikes, which puzzled me, as hundreds of rounds have all gone bang, even 48 of the 50 reloads. I checked the crimp, and both rounds seemed to be crimped too much by the factory crimp die. If it is too crimped, it will screw up the head spacing! I suspect the rounds are too tapered. I really think with the .309 cast bullets, I may just use the taper crimp, BARELY crimping, since the case mouth is sized .307, and the projectiles are snug in the cases already. The LEE factory crimp die seems to put a VERY heavy crimp on it, especially considering the 30 Carbine headspaces on the case mouth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

The LEE factory crimp die seems to put a VERY heavy crimp on it, especially considering the 30 Carbine headspaces on the case mouth.

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Then back it off a bit and lock the nut accordingly. With case crimping, I inspect the first rounds under a watchmakers eyeglass, and set the die so the the case mouth is barely tighter than parallel. Without the eyeglass, all you can see is a slight shine on the last fraction of a millimeter, where the crimp die has taken out the flare on the mouth.

To keep this kind of sensitive setting, my dies now have nuts with a locking grub screw. And a witness mark to show if the setting has shifted.

I had to return 450 rounds of commercial "new manufactured" carbine ammo because of too much crimp. I had trouble with the first box of 50 and then saw that they had way too much taper on them. On the ones I'm reloading myself, I only put .001" - .002" (at the very most) of crimp on them - and that's measured right at the very end of the case. I've never experimented with different weight bullets for reloading with rifles, but on my SA revolvers I'm pretty sure the heavier bullets hit a bit higher due to heavier recoil - that's at 20 -25 yards or so. Sounds like you are having some fun out there on patrol. :D - Bob

I had my seating/taper crimp die set with NO taper, and was relying solely on the LEE factory crimp die. I noticed it was crimping heavy, and backed it off a little. I think I will dispense with the FCD and use the taper as you suggest.

I still use the FCD after the seater/crimp die, but only have it adjusted in about 1/4 - 3/8 of a turn. That gives me the .001" - .002" crimp I want. The setting depends on the thickness of the brass cases that you are using. You should be able to get it "right" with or without the FCD. Let us know how the next batch turns out. - Bob

I finally got a good setting: I use the taper crimp/seating die to seat, still with no taper, then just barely engaging the LEE factory crimp die. Does a perfect job without excessive crimp. I also have some Rainier Ballistics plated 110s coming from Midway USA, that I will load with about 14.7 grains of WW296. That should be close to the Remington 110 FMJs and JSPs I use for duty ammo. I'll use those for "practice" and the 115 lead for "plinking". When I load up the plated, I will post some comparison pictures.

Well I now have two differerent loads I have worked up:

First the 115 Bear Creek Moly bullet over 11 Grains of Alliant 2400. Because of the fatter ogive, I have to seat them to a shorter OAL than FMJ. This load cycles the weapon 100% of the time, feeds flawlessly from USGI 15 and 30 rounders, and seems to shoot as tight a group at 25 yards as the R-P 110 FMJ factory loads. At 75 to 100 yards it bounces pinecones and can very well. It shoots a tad lower than R-P 110 FMJs.

Second it the one I am really exceited about.
110 grain Rainier Ballistics copper plated bullets over 14.6 grains of WW296, The bullet looks like a FMJ, and has a rebated base. It loads the the same OAL as the FMJ loads. I haven't shot this one yet, but I am betting it will duplicate the 110 FMJs. The best thing is that they run less than $20/1,000 more than the Bear Creek

From left to right:

Remington 110 grain FMJ factory load, 110 Rainier Ballistics / WW296 load, 115 Bear Creek moly coated with 11 Grains of 2400.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f4df360b-1.jpg

One of the best things about my two M1 Carbines is, that if you reload, they can be fairly cheap to shoot (especially if you cast your own). This means you can shoot them more, have more fun, and become more proficient. My two ARs on the other hand, are expensive as heck to reload, and loade ammo is either non-existent or back through the roof if you find it at all. I have 1,000+ rounds of 5.56, but won't be doing much plinking or practice with it!