Japanese Type I

Kind of a last minute decision due to a snow storm but decided to go to a nearby gun show.

Impressions since going to a gun show near Philly two weeks ago are that people are going nuts. Two weeks ago a WASR 10 Romanian AK semi-auto were selling for $700 which was up from $550 prior to the school shooting. Today the exact same rifles were selling for $1250. Granted I didn't see any walking out the door but that's the price on the table and there weren't many on the tables. Two weeks ago, they were everywhere. AR's were listing from $1500 to $2400 and these were selling at the low end.

In any case it also affected my purchase as the dealer was completely unwilling to bargain on price. He was selling SKS's one after the other and actually raised his price $50 since the morning.

I found a Japanese Type I in very nice condition, possibly too nice with the finish on the stock. It has a high gloss finish which I've never seen on a Type I before but looks like the finish on an Arisaka. The metal looks to be 95%+, the inside looks 100%, the bolt face doesn't look like it's been fired and the bore is bright and shiny. The stock does have some dings and scratches and one possible carved character that resembles a 7. Has original cleaning rod. The stock is separated a bit along the butt joint. Does not appear to have been sanded, the wood is bulky around all the metal parts.

I don't have time for photos tonight but will try to get some up tomorrow.

Like I mentioned, it was a bit more than what I wanted to pay, I think you get accustomed to going to a show like this, seeing the asking price and then making an offer/counter offer etc to do better. Price was not out of line by any means and I think I got a decent deal on it even if the finish is an add on.

Was also at the show and saw Type I price was good I thought stock did look like it had a finish applied picked up one about 3 weeks ago in mint condition for just a liittle more.You are right about AR prices saw one at Oaks 795 same thing today 1595 and person looking at it said it was a good price go figure, just laughed and walked away.Wait 2 months prices will be back to normal.I'm sure you have seen me at the shows I have a table at them.Don't sell guns thought just my way of being able to buy them and have fun lots of good people there.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I don't have time for photos tonight but will try to get some up tomorrow.

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Can't wait.

Photos came out dark due to flash I believe. Finish is fairly heavy but more solid than the Russian shellac although that is what it resembles. I haven't done anything to it, not even wiped it down. I'd like some opinions on the finish and if it is not original how best to get it off without disturbing the finish underneath.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8241-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8240-1.jpg

This is the inside of the action

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8247-1.jpg

This is the "carved" "7". Could just be a scratch but it seems deliberate.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8243-1.jpg

Not sure how well you can see it but the cleaning rod has the little stamp like the bolt head

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8246-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8242-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8244-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8245-1.jpg

Aragorn,
Nice!
I passed on a Type 1 (first that I ever recognized in person). The finish more resembled a typical Arisaka. I didn't recall any markings on the wood.
The price was well under $400.00.

I really like that rifle!!

I paid $259 for it so I think it was a fair price considering the condition. All I've ever seen were pretty beat up examples so I don't have much to compare it too. The bore just has some dust in the first inch or so so it hasn't been fired in a long while, no pitting, no rust.

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by grumpy638

I'm sure you have seen me at the shows I have a table at them.Don't sell guns thought just my way of being able to buy them and have fun lots of good people there.

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I get pretty single minded at these shows so if you didn't have a milsurp sitting on the table I probably flew by. Let me know how you set up and next time I'll stop in and chat.

I got a nice Type one, also mint, awhile back and took it to the range..It just feels so tight. 400 bucks wasn't a deal but was not a screwing either with such a good bore as long as you plan to bang off some rounds with it.

Old Joe

Research indicates that these rifles were shipped from Italy to Japan unfinished and many can still be found that way. Others were finished by the Japanese, linseed oil being most commonly recognized. No specific mention of the Arisaka type finish this looks to have but a somewhat vague reference that they were finished in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Photos came out dark due to flash I believe.

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Very nice. I knew you would come thru with som photos. Is it just me or does the shiny finish not appear on the horizonal surfaces along the barrel channel and action recess? It looks very nice as is.

The finish is on the horizontal surfaces, they also have oil/grease on them which cut down the shine. I took the hand guard off today and it was not applied to the interior, that looks like it is either unfinished or one coat of oil, it's fairly clean and dry. No rust under the hand guard either. Didn't really expect it with the exterior condition but you never know. Have not yet felt ambitious enough to take the action out of the stock to see who made it. Stampings on the bolt are all PB that I've found so far. Parts for these were made at several factories and then assembled at another. The assembly plant is supposed to be marked on the bottom of either the barrel or the receiver.

I did try on it's pre-purchased bayonet. Fit perfectly. I did however find that one of my other bayonets is out of round and needs fixed. Not sure how that escaped me to this point. A couple of taps with a hammer should fix it.

I t sure seems to have the nice red color. My 2 cents I would not touch the finish. Very nice piece as is.

I like the finish, I just don't know if Bubba did it or not. If Bubba did it, I'd rather have the correct finish on it. If the Japanese military did it, I'm fine with it. It does look nice.

I'm the cotton swab guy me and my friend lanyard Lew set up at the shows will be at fernwood this weekend

At one time I had three and all were different colors. On one the but stock was one inch shorter. If thats poly on the stock it will be hard to remove without taking of the finish under it also. roy

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Originally Posted by grumpy638

I'm the cotton swab guy me and my friend lanyard Lew set up at the shows will be at fernwood this weekend

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I don't expect I'll be at any shows for a while. I don't go to many and I'm out of gun money right now. I usually hit Harrisburg. Just made my first trips to Gettysburg, Fair Oaks and Reading. I've been to Lebanon before and did like that one but I don't know if I'll head up in a few weeks or not. I don't want to upset the wife too much. She's been pretty patient with me so far. I need to save for a Garand.

---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by riceone

At one time I had three and all were different colors. On one the but stock was one inch shorter. If thats poly on the stock it will be hard to remove without taking of the finish under it also. roy

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It isn't poly, that much I can tell. It's also very old, been on there a long time as you can tell where the wood shrank along the butt joint, the finish at one time met. It's like matching sides of a puzzle piece and the gap wasn't wide when it was applied, probably wasn't a gap in all sections by appearances..

I opened it up today. It is marked FAT on the barrel so it's a Terni assembled rifle, an early "B" series so about the 11,000's produced if the numbering holds true which no one seems to know. Was some minor pitting on the base of the receiver so it's seen some use. Interior of the stock is unfinished best I can tell, doesn't look as if it had been dipped in oil. Found one small "S" on the receiver tang and the two PB's I mentioned on the bolt. Cleaned the dust out of the barrel end and that's all that was in there. Bore very clean otherwise. Two patches and it was clean.

I was cleaning the rifle a bit last evening and discovered the butt joint was loose and it slid right off. Having never seen this before I figured maybe you guys hadn't either so for those less daring perhaps, this is what the butt joints look like on at least the Italian stock, I would expect the Japanese stocks to be very similar.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8256-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8255-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8254-1.jpg

Under that finish, as you've likely seen, is an orange hued wood that closely matches the "Italian Walnut" used on some US Krag rifle stocks circa 1900 and a bit later.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Having never seen this before I figured maybe you guys hadn't either

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Not in the case of a Type I! Thanks for the "techie" photos.

Here's a Japanese Type 38 lower section for comparison. (I think it's been shortened in the back, though.):

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff041-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff043-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff042-1.jpg

Guys, I just couldn't stand it anymore. After taking it apart and seeing what was in there, I had to get that varnish off of it. While it may have looked nice in the photos, it was cloudy in spots, had large runs, had a few fingerprints and a few scuffs in it. The wood underneath had a simple oil finish and as of tonight, that is what it has again. If I had felt that it was original in any way, I would have kept it but it was Bubba finish and had to go. I asked around on a few other sites and everyone said it was not an original finish. All research I did pointed to either no finish or a light coating of linseed oil.

The two piece stock is very interesting to me. They were not glued but held in place by the butt plate and the sling screws. On the Type I, there is one very long screw that went through both pieces. You can see the screw hole in the photos. I can see in the Type 38 photos they did the same from the side. Looks like an additional screw with the trigger guard on that one. The glue on mine was probably done by the same guy that put the varnish on it. It was all dried out, not sure what kind it was but it didn't hold up over time.

Anyway, here are the after photos with two coats of BLO.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8259-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_8260-1.jpg

Looks much better to me.

1) Please do NOT remove that finish. I think it might be original urushi. I.e. genuine Japanese lacquer, not the stuff that you buy in d.i.y.shops.

My reasoning:
The finish follows the wood ripples, dents and dings, and you have discovered that it also lies beneath the oil/grease layer in some places. A later finish would hardly be applied over the greasy patches, and would tend to fill the depressions. Please take a closer look with a watchmakers eyeglass. If it really is usushi, it will be very hard and unaffected by alcohol.

2) The scratched symbol does not look to me like a 7, but rather a Kanji 941 "Katana" = sword. About 2 inches to the left there might be another symbol - or, of course, a random scratch. Please look closer.

LATER:

OK, I just saw the later posting, and I'm too late. I just hope that I was wrong and you did not destroy an original finish. Probably not - if it had been urushi you would have found it devilish hard to get off.

Patrick,

Definitely not original finish. I researched it for nearly a month before deciding to take it off. It had an oil finish underneath plus some minor staining. It also came off extremely easy, you could scratch it off with your fingernail. Not as easily as a Russian refurb but it didn't penetrate the wood at all. I had it completely refinished in about 8 hours. The dents were filled in, etc. The mark/scratch was very recent as it had no discoloration from age. It was also applied long after the butt stock shrank and the joint expanded. That with the glue in the joint indicated that someone worked on it sometime in the past and they weren't Japanese. I also found no indications the Type I's ever had urushi applied to them. Oil or nothing seems to be the case.

I am relieved to hear that the finish was definitely not original. It just shows that photos can really fool you!

It looked real nice in the photos. Just not so much in real life. Probably the flash. The most telling area showing it was applied rather late is the area behind the bolt and safety. It was chipped pretty bad on both sides and the varnish filled the chips. I'm extremely pleased with the way it turned out. The underlying oil finish wasn't removed with the varnish and a light touch with some fresh oil gives it a nice light sheen without being shiny.

In Canada, the Type 1 rifles are rare as hen's teeth. I had been looking for one for close to 40 years. Even back in the day when I could just order them from across the Line. A few came up for sale, every once in a while but never in any quantities.

I tried on several occasions to purchase one or even two. The only ones I passed on were real beaters. Anything in VG or better condition was sold before I could get at it. Back in those days, we got the magazines about a month later than the folks in the States. Usually the places adverizing them would have less than 50.

The rifles you show here, would go for at least 50% more than you paid for them.

I finally managed to find one last year, minus a bolt. Not a big deal though. My local gun shop had an Italian issue bolt that fits perfectlyl and from what I can tell so far, the head space is good.

The bolts on the Type I are different only in the bolt guide/ejector slot. The Type I has the slot cut dead centre and the Italian Carcano has the slot offset about 3/32 in.

I was a bit worried that widening the slot to allow it to fit all the way into the receiver would weaken the bolt and make it unsafe. Then my mind went into gear and I realized that as long as I don't have to cut the locking lugs, all will be well.

Thanks for posting those pics. I can see now that the bolts should be blued. I will blue mine.

My stock is a dull reddish color and has a bit of damage around the rear grip area. Nothing serious. The stock, looks to be Beech.

It is my understanding that the rifles were left unmarked purposely, so that they could be stamped in Japan, just like many were shipped with unfinished wood.

It is also my understanding that they were bought exclusively for the Japanese Navy. They supposedly had problems with breaking off bolt handles and never issued many of the rifles, nor finished all of them.

Bearhunt,
Could you break out and post photos of your rifle? I recently passed on a Type 1... and am thinking very heavily about grabbing the next nice one I see. So I would like to see yours!!