1944 Shirley No 4 T

Hello All,
I'm recently new to the forum group and have also recently found this No 4 T. Most of my research on this rifle has been at this website..I have to say the knowledge section is quite impressive. Everything on this No 4 T seems to be correct down to the matching scope. I'm a little unsure about one characteristic of the magazine, but thats about all.

A couple questions I have is to deal with the prefix of the serial No beginning with an "H" I have heard of the "H" prefix but not on any "T" rifles, also I would be interested to know where this number would have placed it in reference to order completion?

Below are some pics. Any advice or knowledge is welcome in any respect, I am especially interested in any information dealing with the "H prefix serial #.

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Contracts were awarded in serial number blocks.
BSA Guns were awarded a block of 13,000 and then a block of 270,000 rifles. Then the Shirley factory was awarded a block of 230,000 in which block your rifle was the 84,943 rd rifle made.

“Is my Lee Enfield sniper rifle a fake?” - Enfield-Rifles.com “Is my Lee Enfield sniper rifle a fake?” Let your fingers do the walking, knowing there is always new information being uncovered and facts missed in any article. Case in point, this article misses the Savage sniper conversions.

Thanks,
That makes sense.

Marty

Hello All,
Thought I would share some pics and info of a recently acquired rifle of mine. I'm not that good with the camera so the pics are a little less than studio quality, but for intended purposes hopefully it will do. Like any kid with a new piece of candy I couldn't wait to shoot it, so I had a friend check the headroom, picked up a box of cartridges and took it straight to a pit where I shoot often. Here is where the "lessons learned" begins. After a fairly brief inspection of the scope clicking the turrets through their adjustments while observing the crosswire I decided to take it to the 100 yd mark shooting at a piece of copy paper with an "X" deflection set to zero and elevation to -1. First shot was on the bottom left corner almost missing the paper, the next three shots didn't hit the target at all. After sctrutinizing the No 32 a little (with respect of course) I decided it needed service. After speaking with BD is S. Carolina I coundn't make myself feel settled about it. So at this point the novice decides to do what he should have done to begin with..get educated! Obviously not being over-abundant with patience, I couldn't see having to wait weeks to recieve Peter's literature, although it is on the way, I looked for all the info available in the web. I'll try to keep this down to a short novel but I was able to find two discrepancies that were leading factors at least. First, someone had discovered how convenient it was to adjust the turret barrel scales. The windage was off 16 clicks. The elevation seems to be very close. Since the scope has never been separated from the base I didn't accomplish a true collimation, but close enough for my own satisfaction. Secondly the upper hand guard was slid all the way forward hard into the front sight protector. After investigation, I loosened the strap screws, slipped it back and tightened. It seemed to snug up well. The muzzle seems to be nestled in the bottom center of the stock with maybe a couple pounds down force. From what I gather this should be in correct form? Anyway at this point I'm ready to take it back to the pit but start from the beginnning this time. I would be graciously appreciative of any advice and comments are also welcome. I understand at this point a "Dammit Giligan!!" would probably be in order, but some of the best things in life also come with humility I suppose.

Thanks everyone and especially Peter for sharing your knowledge.

M

If that finish is what it looks like, that's the earliest Brunofixed receiver I can recall. Otherwise, I'm thinking familiarization with the system will solve most of your dramas. It's not like anything you're likely to have run across previously.

One good thing about the moving reticle is that if it's grossly off, it's easy to notice! As far as a first zeroing goes, use big paper. 100yds max. If the scope is in good nick, you will probaby be able to see any bullet holes in the white.

But before shooting, ensure the front pad is tight to the receiver. Screws should be tight, but don't go crazy torquing them, just make sure there's no wiggle.

when attaching the scope, get both thumb screws started and turned in most of the way. Tighten the rear one first, then the front. Hand tighten only! No ham-fisted louts need apply. Check periodically if it makes you feel better. Remove after use. It will return to zero next time, but well worn spigots sometimes mean a 1-2 minute POI shift in elevation after the first shot, however, it's something I've only encountered on well used L42a1s.

You should have bought Peter's telescope book when you called. It's a bargain at $15 plus shipping. Apologies if I forgot to mention it on the phone. I've had so many calls here the past few weeks that I honestly don't remember.

Always tighten the rear thumb screw last, not first as instructed by JM above. Dyslexia maybe JM?

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Dyslexia maybe JM?

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I still have a hard time remembering from which end to load the consarned things. Does the bullet go in from the front or the back on these?

Thanks JM & Brian,

Concerning the finish it is unlike anything I am familiar with exactly. I read that H&H would heat the reciever up to 744 degrees and quinch it in oil. Until JM mentioned the brunofix I was settled with that conclusion. I have oil quenched a few parts in the past and in some areas it has the muttled finish you would expect, but in other areas it's a uniform almost abrasive texture especially on the sides of the reciever. This would be an area popular to clean...I'm wondering if there was a brunofinish PRIOR to arivving at H&H and the oil quench finish has been cleaned away from the sides which are easy to get to? We may never know!
Thanks for the pointers JM

Brian I will pick up the book from you asap.

M

The Brunofix finish is unique and was only used on the bodies of the No.4T as produced by BSA/H&H starting in 1944 through the end of production in 1945. No one seems to know the formulation and no one has ever duplicated it which is a good thing considering the fakery going on at this late date. It's a variant of a a coarse phosphate of some kind, (guessing?). Quench bluing is a good finish for small parts like pins and screws but was never utilized on larger components like barrels and bodies. Heating a body red hot and quenching it would be destructive to the hardened locking lug recesses. No.4T rifles were blued up until the Brunofix finish came along for the bodies. Rifles that went through workshops and full blown FTR got refinished with phosphate, (Parkerizing), and baked on Suncorite 259 paint post war. That was the standard finish until the end of their careers as late as the 1970's.

I would totally agree with Brian re the finish. The wood also looks unadulterated (nice & crisp marks of the right type in the right places!), & the scope has the slightly scarcer Rose Brother's examiner's mark of 'KD' rather than the commoner 'JG'. A nice genuinely matched rig.

ATB

What are the markings on the underside of the forearm below the forend cap?

Actually, whilst we are at it (I made an assumption when I said about it being genuinely matching - tho I'm pretty sure it will prove to be), confirmation that the scope serial is on the wrist of the butt would be nice, too.

ATB

Here are a couple more pics. As far as I can tell everything is genuinely matched without exception. The only major discrepancy is where a bit of rust had developed on the top of the optical tube on the scope near the set screw, but it's not really that terrible.

What will the marks on the forearm undeside tell us?Attachment 39456Attachment 39457

Is there a serial number on the forend?

No serial number, there is the letter "N" over the number "49" shown in the last two pics located on the underside

N/49 is the wartime code for H. Morris & Co. Ltd., Glasgow. The manufacturer of the forend. The examiner's marks are kind of fuzzy in the pic. I can't make them out too well. The forend is a replacement if it isn't numbered. If you remove the handguards and look in the channels, the rifle serial number will be penciled there too if factory original. The serial number of the rifle will also be on the top lip of the buttstock inside the butt socket. You would need to remove it to check.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The forend is a replacement if it isn't numbered. If you remove the handguards and look in the channels, the rifle serial number will be penciled there too if factory original.

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I would say the pencilled internal number would trump the added external number on the fore stock. Having no number on the outside doesn't mean it's not H&H. But it does mean it left the system pretty quickly Post WWII.

But if it has no pencilled number on the inside, then you are out of luck. And the style seems pretty distinctive.

From what I've compared everything to so far, this seems to be from H&H. There are too many distinctions that could only have come from that shop in my opinion. But with the serial number missing on the bottom of the forestock, I do question why it's not there? All the screw heads are like new is the reason I haven't removed the stock, but I will have to see under the forestock now and I will get a new set of pictures when I do. I'll try to improve on the pics too!

Thanks Guys

M

Anything is possible. It certainly looks honest to me. I don't think I've ever seen a forend with the serial number penciled in the barrel channel. Only the handguards.

I would agree that it is likely 'honest' (the fore end) - take a look at the fourth photo in the first set that Mr Hendrix posted - where the back of the woodwork meets the front of the butt socket. It may have been off recently, but I don't think so.

ATB

Just curious if there is a marking on the top of the fore stock at the location indicated below:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4d25afb2-1.jpg

No sir.

You may have a point there, jm!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

You may have a point there, jm!

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:madsmile:

If you don't mind my asking..what marking would be found there and what significance would it mean? Or does the absence of this mark have any significance as well?

I still haven't tried to take any more photos and not sure when I will get to it. My work season is beginning and the kaos that comes with it gets me sidetracked a bit. The problem with the former pics is the lack of lighting. Outside in the sunlight will be where I try the next shots but we haven't had much of that lately as the days have been pretty gloomy as of late.

Thanks again for sharing with me.
M

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Originally Posted by mhendrix

If you don't mind my asking..what marking would be found there and what significance would it mean?

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It appears on some rifles but not others. Gathering data at this point.