Aside from the story.... any thoughts on GB auction # 325113925 RIA Model 1903 Rifle # 226776. TIA Steve McG
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Aside from the story.... any thoughts on GB auction # 325113925 RIA Model 1903 Rifle # 226776. TIA Steve McG
Besides the story, VERY nice rifle in absolutely beautiful condition! You have to love the early M1903 :)
nice rifle...story is just that...a story...without proof. its just a tail.
please post a link to these, to make it easier for other to see. its not that hard.
Rock Island Arsenal Model 1903 Rifle, 30-06, Rare : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com
Nice rifle, but seems a bit high to me.
For a pre WWI rifle in such a nice condition the price still is rather good, that's at least my experience. I expect it to sell for a higher price, maybe $ 1200 to $ 1500?
notice how in two of the photo's the rear sight windage adjustment knob was mounted on the LEFT side. Oops, he explained that at the end of the description.
I'd be willing to bet the rifle is a NRA Sales rifle. A lot of RIAs in that range were. The story might be good told around the fireplace or campfire, but I highly doubt it is true.The vast number of stories about "bring-backs" are just that - stories.
---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------
If you find any correct, original RIA pre-WWI rifles for $1000, I'll buy all you have!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by joem
Gun was in WWI? Troop killed but gave it away as he dies? Oh, please, enough bull. Nice looker, but I doubt it ever saw combat. But, who switched the rear sight knob? Looks odd to me, likely not done on active duty, has been in a shooters hand for some amount of time.
in the hundreds of 1903s and A3,s with bring back stories...iv seen 3 that were legit...one was a 1903A4, the other a 1903A1 USMC snipers rifle, and another A3 so rusted you can barley make it out as a 1903A3, the A4 is in a buddies collection, old lady was humping around a gunshow in fair shape, full of dust, original scope, sling, and duffle cut, with a story of her brother in WW2 carried it in Europe, with pics of him with said rifle, said it was under his bed loaded for over 60 years, he was scared {in her words} the Fkn Germans were going to come back and kill us all lol..
she wouldnt sell me the rifle, i dont think she liked my tattoos,,but did sell the rifle to a retired cop friend of mine, he still owns the rifle, along with the pics and info.
the USMC snipers rifle is in a private collection, here in Denver, in a large collection owned by an ex manager from Remington arms, rifle is rough, has seen combat, scope is bent, rusted, and sits in a displat case, with pics, paper work, ect, like the A4...i belive it to be the real thing.
the A3 is in a private collection, of a close friend, who was a vet, but after WW2, and was stationed in France, said he picked it up off the ground one morning during guard duty, just as it is.
i have seen a couple other WW2 weapons that were likely real bring backs...but all had proof {capture papers} or other documents, pics, magazine articles ect, to back up the story.
but 90% of my dad or grandpa brought this back from the war...or just feel good stories.
Are you sure? Why the story I got on that thar rifle gun was it was the one that ole U.S. Grant used when he single handedly stormed the shores of Montazuma and the halls of Tripoli and captured the top of Mount Ariat and never even had to reload:rofl::madsmile::lol::dancingbanana::cheers: :nono:
A general question about US law and so-called "bringbacks".
A US rifle is issued to a US serviceman.
It is not given to him.
It does not become his personal property.
It is placed in his possession to be used as required by the service.
If he leaves the service, he no longer has any reason or entitlement to possess the weapon.
He cannot give it away or take it with him. It is not his property and he has no rights over it.
It remains the property of the US armed forces.
The service can dispose of the weapon as it pleases.
The serviceman cannot dispose of it at all.
Right or wrong?
That pretty much sums up my understanding of rifles in the service. I believe the overwhelming majority of so-called "bringbacks" are when the veteran obtains a rifle like he used from another source, like a gunshop or sporting goods store. The story may start out as "This is like the rifle I used in (fill in the blank) war". Over the years, the veteran (or his relatives, after he passes away) may gradually change the story to, "This is the rifle I carried in ______ War."
ecception...officers that retired were offered to keep issued side arms. pre 1960,s
i own my Uncles 1911A1, i have the D day bag, pilots ammo, holster, extra mags ect, he was a B24 pilot, and retired as a Capt. he was offered to keep his personal side arm. he did.
my Aunt, had thrown it in the trash, i fetched it from said trash bin...and i own it.
Did they have to purchase them Chuck?Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckindenver
i belive so, if i remember right what he told me..mind you i was 16 when he told me about it...he had to give 25.00 for it, the holster i have was not the one he was issued, the MN state police had taken the pistol at one time, when he was on a fishing trip, when he got the pistol back, the shoulder holster was long gone, the one i have is a 1918 dated belt holster.
he said he had to sweet talk the police chief at the time to get it back, and tell him about a secret fishing hole...lol
i alos have a Type 99 Jap rifle he grabbed in a pile of rifles.
That sort of follows a story I heard at one point. Very similar.
Sounds good to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Many "bringbacks" are just STOLEN. As we know, plenty had the "pull" or means to get one home.
And I'll bet some of those firearms also became ones "just like I had", because the real story was not told. ;)
We live in a different Century - and I can tell you the attitudes were different in the previous one. We tend to see the world through modern, Politically Correct and legalistic eyes - things were a bit more open and direct in the early and middle twentieth century.
The reason there are so many M1911 pistols from WWI without any "A1 updates", etc, is that a lot of them came home in dufflebags after WWI. It might not have been the individual soldier's issued serial number - but there were lots of pistols (and rifles) on the ground (along with their bearers) after a major battle, and that has been true for all time. I personally know of four bring backs, all "stolen" in the legalistic point of view. Being sixty, and raised by and surrounded by "The Greatest Generation" in my formative years, I can tell you that the attitudes of the time were that they were "earned in battle", and if the soldier felt a strong bond with the weapon due to some dark times together, his peers did not regard it as "stolen". They were all aware of the Army's rules, and some declared them "lost" and had it taken out of their pay, some just substituted a battlefield pickup or pulled one out of an unlocked rack and brought it home.
One, unfortunately long disapeared through a deceased family member, was an M1 rifle my Dad brought home when mustered out of the 82nd Airborne in 1946. It was not the one issued to him, of course. Along about 1962, our next door neighbor in Kansas City let me (then ten years old) use the master bathroom off his bedroom - as I returned to the living room through the bedroom there was a 1918 BAR proped up in the corner. I asked Dad about it, and he told me our neighbor had been a BAR man in Korea. And, more recently in a Western state, a high ranking officer died in a plane crash, and his widow (who I know personally) found his Vietnam issued M14 in his gun safe, complete with FA switch installed. (It was returned to the military, due to it's Full Auto status.)
Finally, my exwife's deceased Dad, a Military Policeman who served in Europe from D-Day plus 3 and remained in the Reserves, attaining the rank of Warrant Officer and running Guard and Reserve Training Camps in his state every summer into the 1970's, long ago showed me the 1911A1, belt and holster that he wore throught WWII. When you see the movie "Battle of the Bulge" where the MP Sgt. notices that the "American Convoy" of trucks and jeeps at the crossroads is all Germans in US uniforms, that is Max, who came to the US from Germany in the 1920s as a boy, and recognized their mannerisms.
Computers did not exist, and records of issue, handwritten in ledgers were not easily accessed, in a time when you took your weapon with you, from unit to unit. And once the war was over, there was little interest in bookkeeping - only in mustering everyone out and home as quickly as possible. Today it's easy to keep exact and accurate track of a unit's weapons - except when they go "lost in combat" - just like back then. "The Past is Another Country - they do things differently there" (A title to his book Another Country) - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC CC
PS - Another Country is an excellent book on pre-war America. An example of "unbelievable" behavior today, was Cooper's Southern California High School - where the ROTC "Raised the Colors" every morning in full military uniform, with Bugler, Sword carrying student officer, and students bearing M1903 Springfields in formation!. Hard to imagine that scene today - but it was every morning in the 1930's. CC
Can anyone document a WWII-era prosecution by either civilian or military authorities for theft of semi-automatic USGI small arms? Disciplinary action of any sort?
My Dad told me a story when he was in the US Navy. The XO of Dad's cruiser was going home for the weekend. He had to pass through a USMC check point to grab a cab, San Diego(?). The Marines were checking every 3-4 sailor and the XO ended up being 4th in line. They had him open his bag and promptly found a M1911A1 pistol. They called for the Officer of the Day and he was personally escorted back to the ship. The XO left the Navy just a week later. All done very quietly as well.
Having a background in a vastly different kind of inspection work, we called random inspections "the scarecrow effect." Deterence is cheapest - just like putting doubts in those crow's heads. The "bringback" doubters insist on written documentation, so your informative post might not meet their standards.
"Bringback" is a convenient, but misleading term. "Send homes" would probably be more accurate. The military committed to making mail service as quick as possible and sacrificed security to that end. A statement by the War Department Deputy Chief of Staff in March '45 included a long list of USGI gear found in parcels being mailed home by GIs. The statement went on to say that 300,000 parcels per month were mailed home through the NY POE and another 200,000 through Boston. Guess how many customs inspectors those two POEs had? 4. That's total, not each. Think all of those half a million parcels per month only had cuckoo clocks and beer steins in them? At the time the statement was made, there was no requirement for inspecting parcels prior to mailing (they soon added the requirement - but it didn't work either). With that level of staffing, looking inside 1% would have required a major effort. You don't think the grapevine got the word around that it was a low risk endeavor, do you? Why risk getting arrested getting on or off the boat - and delaying your arrival home, when if you mail a parcel just before embarkation, at least you'd get home before getting nabbed.
Besides the obvious pistols, carbines, and MGs, the statement listed dental instruments, welding equipment, and live hand grenades as being found. If it wasn't nailed down and a guard posted, it got packed up and mailed home. When the army busted the Hesse crown jewels ring, they went to the home of the parents of the main perp, Jack Durant. In an unopened box he had sent from Europe and had addressed to himself they found a 1911 pistol. Customs inspectors manged to miss that one - and no teliing how many thousands more.
Being dubious of a particular undocumented item is a totally separate matter from claiming such occurences were rare.
There was a very nice Gas Trap Garand that sold on Gunbroker(?) recently for real money. Long, crazy story aboutthe Garand being carried around from Panama to The Bulge and then back home, never discovered, never seen by any unit Officers and in very nice, orginal shape. Crazy, stupid story that did disservice to a nice, rare gun. Almost certainly stolen in Panama and mailed home to Mom in early 1942 when the unit deployed to England. But the story went on and the owner told the stroy to as many people who would listen. Silly story.
We had a thread on that story here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
It sold for $ 3,094.00. Thought this sum would be worth mentioning.
If I may i'll add a bringback story from WW I.
My grandfather was on a mine sweeper in the north sea. He used to tell stories about shooting & exploding mines from the deck with an '03. They frequently stopped and sent out hunting parties for fresh meat. During a one of these shore excursions in Russia he traded ivory soap for a russian rifle. At the end of the war when they were being mustered out in New Oleans he had a couple of hours before he had to get his paperwork and stashed the rifle in a bus depot locker. He lost the rifle in the 40's when his house burnt down. But he brought it home.
Leggett
When I was out processing from Vietnam (1966) I shipped home a footlocker with personal gear and it was never inspected before shipping or after arrival. There could have been anything in there.
Personal baggage and duffel bags were another story and were inspected about six times in Saigon before boarding the freedom bird and there was little chance of bringing any contraband home.
AZB
$3094.00??? For a "story" gun, sorry for the buyer. Low numbers don't bring much. You just need to find that one special buyer.
It actually looked like a more or less correct low numbered RIA, and those are worth something. Whether the "story" was worth buying is another matter. I was in the auction for a while, but someone was willing to pay a lot more than I was.
Want another "bring back" story? My Father sent some neat stuff home from Vietnam, he would mark the boxes as "FILM" and wrote "do not expose to light" on the boxes. The MP44 and M2 Carbine were later taken by the ATF and I was told the MP44 is in the Smithsonian Museum but I cannot confirm that. Some others were taken as well but those were the ones that hurt the most. He was not charged with a crime and later served in Law enforcement. It makes me wonder if the guns are in somebody's collection.
Your statements are accurate insofar as they go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Soldiers, however, and especially officers, have been allowed to take their personal weapons to war with them, and especially when those weapons were issue-type service rifles that fired standard military ammunition. There's a reasonable chance that the rifle in the Gunbroker auction is a pre-WWI sales rifle and was the personal property of Corporal Conover. In that case, Corporal Conover was entirely within his rights to pass the rifle to his buddy and have the rifle sent home.
For what it's worth.
J.B.
Interesting point of view John...wonder what the odds are?
About a million to one. He purchased his one '03 to go to war with? Boy, it doesn't get much better then that. One of my buddies purchased a NM '03 just before WWII. He had his Mom watch it at home as he went off to the war. Now that is a true stroy.
The statistical odds are higher than you may think!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
The statistical odds are probably higher than 1:1000 based on serial number alone. When other factors are considered, the statistical odds may jump to 1:100. If someone can conclusively connect the rifle to Corporal Conover's surviving family and validate Corporal Conover's service record with a little research, the statistical odds go way up! And if Corporal Conover can be connected with an NRA-affiliated shooting club prior to WWI, that would clinch the deal.
J.B.
p.s.,
Lt. John George, author of Shots Fired in Anger, took his .30-'06 caliber scope-sighted Winchester Model 70 to war with him and used it with great effect on Guadalcanal in 1942. Read the book!