Carcano M-38??

hi , I have been reading up here for a few weeks, great info, Thanks

I have a new family hand me down! I believe it is a carcano m-38
the barrel is just over 20" and the over all length is 40"
the rifling is consistent in its rate of twist
marked 6.5 terni 1940 XXIII, unfortunatly the stock has been shortened - sporterized(i hate that word)
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I took her completely apart, cleaned oiled and re assymbled
she cycles fine and I cycled a full 6 round clip in and out of the chamber
I test fired her with 4 rounds of the new Hornady 6.5 carcano ammo, it was available locally and I got it before I had done much research on the rifle.

the first and second rounds fired fine,
the third and fourth rounds fired fine as well, but after looking at the casings I noticed the primers had blown out of the casings and there was an impression of the bolt on the end of the casing as well.
the closest gunsmith is 40 miles away and he does not have a feild gage for this rifle to test headspace, he also said it may be an over pressure problem and may be the bullet diameter. have any of you had this problem before?
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I dug the bullet out of the dirt embankment, only found the copper case, no lead!!

If I can get her operational, I would like to put her back in orriginal form in time for deer season
Thanks
Stephen

A few questions and things to consider-- Do the pimers stick out on the cases that didn't blow. If so how much? Did you find the primers that came out? I've shot some old ammo where the primers just kind of vaporized when shot. I think these were very old with corrosive primers. Check the bore size. Slug it with a cast bullet and mike the lands and grooves. Check the overall case length of the fired cases compared to a new cartridge or reloading specs. Are the cases bulged or split anywhere? I think the first thing that comes to mind is excessive headspace so get that checked out. It is also possible that the chamber has been reamed to accept a different cartridge. Next I would check into the ammo. What are the presssure specs on that hornady ammo? I see you used a tire to remote fire. Good idea! Salt Flat.

I'm guessing that the bore is a bit rough which will run pressures up some with the .267" Hornady bullets. That could well cause the primers to fall out.

Not likely headspace. That produces completely different symtoms, like case head separations.


No more Hornady ammo for that rifle! Try some Prvi instead after a vist to your gunsmith. It's only 40 miles.

(BTW, there's another possible cause and that is excessively soft brass cases. Have had that some years ago with Hornady .308 match ammo. Those rounds would drop expended primers all the time. Rather annoying, and possibly dangerous in an M1 Garand...)

Good photos, BTW! And using the time honored "old tire machine rest" is wise.

Looking at the recovered jacket (the lead does commonly separate with these bullets, but that's not a problem, just momentum) it looks like the bullet is not close to being oversized as the rifling marks don't displace metal to the rear, nor does the jacket seem to fill the grooves completely.
So rough bore combined with long bearing length bullet makes pressures spike.

The downside to using .264" bulleted ammo is that accuracy isn't likely to be all that good. Maybe good enough for a short range deer gun, but you'll have to judge for yourself.

Too bad there's not a dual diametered bullet or a bullet of proper size with a short bearing length available. (The old .264 Win Mag bullets used the dual diameter concept to keep pressures reasonable.)

ETA:Looking further, the rounds with the primers intact seem very nice. No stretch marks either longitudinally or radially. Not headspace nor oversized chamber.

Rough bore (the inside is likely not much better- probably worse- than the outside!) or soft brass. Them's me guesses until more info is available!

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Originally Posted by sixteenacrewood

the first and second rounds fired fine, the third and fourth rounds fired fine as well, but after looking at the casings I noticed the primers had blown out of the casings and there was an impression of the bolt on the end of the casing as well.

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I agree 100% with jmoore.

I would like to add that the reason why the first couple of rounds were OK may have been that the bullet was not excessively large in diameter (as has already been observed) but the rough bore was stripping bits off the jackets, filling the pits, so that succeeding bullets experienced more resistance. In other words, horrifically fast coppering of the rough bore. And maybe a contributing factor in the jacket being left behind the lead core.

First, I suggest a thorough bore cleaning with a copper solvent.
Secondly, if it is still available, get hold of some of the NECO bore lapping paste. This is about a 1200 grit paste. If it is no longer available, you will just have to look for an alternative. In the past, people have been know to use old-fashioned chalky toothpaste - it just takes longer!
Then get some of the PRVI ammo, as already recommended. Hard lead bullets would be more effective, if you are a reloader or know one who can help.
And two palm-sized pieces of flat steel plate.
A tiny dab of the paste is smeared over one surface of one plate, then the bullet is rolled between the plates, with quite firm pressure. Since the plates are much harder than the jacket, some paste particles are pressed into the surface of the jacket. Wipe off the bullets and use.
When those bullets are fired, they will smooth down the rough edges of the pits that (my quess) were shaving off the jacket material and producing the enormous friction that resulted in the overpressure.

It may take you 40-50 shots of "pasted" bullets to notice any difference, but - if my remote diagnosis is correct - the signs of overpressure should gradually disappear.

I realize that the above is somewhat hypothetical, and would welcome comment from others.

I would contact Hornady and advise them of what has happened with your rifle. You can email them the pictures of the fired cases. I have a feeling it's the ammo and not the bullets that is the problem as the first two were fine. I would not be surprised if they exchange the ammo for you with new.

Thanks for all the help
I shot the photos of the rifle before I cleaned her up, there was no rust or pitting on the underside when I removed the stock!

I do need to find info on the best way to clean up the metal and wood.

the casings with primers still intact have not pushed out at all and look like the unfired rounds when comparing primer to case.

all 4 of the fired cases are the same length and there is no deformation of the neck, also the spot where they taper apear to be the same, so no elongation. also no dammage other than the primer missing, I never found them!!

I am going to try and get a photo of the rifling and post it, will be tomorrow before I get a chance. The first few shots did not come out right.

I have been using a tripod and time delay for my photos, that helps a lot for clear upclose shots. I am a woodworker by trade and have to shoot photos of my work regularly, so I have a simi permanent setup for photos.

I think the rough bore may be worth addressing and I'll get the copper solvent when I can get to town. I will also visit the gunsmith, he was very helpful over the phone, and suggested I bring the casses and bullet as well as the rifle.

I did message hornady and will email them the photos once they respond. The website only had an automated contact sheet and no direct email. but I imagine they will respond.

I would really like to put this rifle back to the orriginal configuration, if I get her to shoot properly. I may try to splice on the front part of the stock that was cut off and buy a hand guard and barrel bands.

If you were to look for another Carcano like this, would you try a gun show, online auctions, or local gun shops?

Thanks again for all the advise

Stephen

Six, I restored one that started out like yours but in retrospect it took a lot of fooling around and probably cost almost as much as if I would have found a complete original. I bought one of the last replacement stocks that Sarco was selling. Stocks come up on Ebay occasionly but the prices are rising. Carcanos were cut down by the bazillions just like the 1898 Krags so everybody wants a stock and hardware. Some of the bands and screws are available from Springfield Sporters Inc. (SSporters.com). The other parts are available thru Numrich. You can make the forepiece but your stock has been altered behind the rear band and the stock would never look qute right. Something i am cosidering for my second Carcano is to make a stock from scratch using my Sarco stock as a pattern. It sounds ridiculous, but if you study the inletting and contours I think it is quite possible. I've handmade several other stocks and it has been prety interesting. Next time I get to our local hardwood store I'm going to check out their Beech wood. Salt Flat

Great info Sixteen'.........I really liked your shooting bench. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty about the dimensions of the bore and rifling, and the chambers and bolts of these "sporterized" Carcanos and no certainty about what was actually done to these altered rifles. I'll watch your posts with great interest to see what Hornady suggests with respect to your experience. I have only fired Privi soft point ammo in two weights and have not reloaded anything
with .267-.268 diameter bullets so have not had need, so far, for the tire and rope set up.....the cartridges all performed properly and accuracy to 100 yards has been reasonable for these crappy sights and my old eyes. I am expecting good results from four of these rifles once I get them scoped scoped and as mentioned above they should be at the very least good for deer at shorter ranges. Please share more posts on your findings as I am sure the information will be appreciated by many Carcano owners......thanks....karl:)

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Originally Posted by sixteenacrewood

If you were to look for another Carcano like this, would you try a gun show, online auctions, or local gun shops

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I'd much rather inspect one in person before buying, especially if you intend on shooting it. Not only for bore condition, but for bolt lift. Some Carcanos have very poor cocking and/or extraction cams so cycling the action with the firing pin down is difficult. Other than those two items specific to these rifles, they're about the same as buying any other old rifle.

A year ago, Carcano's were everywhere. I wasn't looking for one then. Now that I am looking for one, I can't find any. Seems to happen a lot. Those I have seen the price is sky high from what they were and I don't know if this is a true picture of their worth or just a few guys gouging. I'm still looking. I go to gun shows and check the local flea markets and gun shops and auctions.

I have a cavalry model that I've shot privi out of with no success. Cases look fine but I have yet to figure out where the bullets go once they leave the barrel. The bore looks great and the rifling is crisp. I suspect it is my use of the sights incorrectly. I need to hold the front pin all the way at the bottom of the rear V and I have not yet tried that. It's probably making me shoot way high.

Salt Flats,
I agree on stock making. I have been doing that for my Gew88's and Mauser 1871's and also my Beaumonts. All it takes is 1 to start the replication process. While probably NOT cost effective, it is entertaining and rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Midmichigun

Salt Flats,
I agree on stock making. I have been doing that for my Gew88's and Mauser 1871's and also my Beaumonts. All it takes is 1 to start the replication process. While probably NOT cost effective, it is entertaining and rewarding.

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Midmichigun, I would like to see some pictures if you get a chance to post! Salt flat

With respect to Carcano 6.5x52mm Privi ammunition I recently fired two rifles to which I had just added scopes. In both cases the actions tightened up after firing and most of the brass casings looked normal except for multiple approx 1" long longitudinal scrapes marks along the sides of the cases. I had been told by the seller that headspace was fine on both rifles but now I wonder if the scrapes are due to excessive head space or chambers that are larger in diameter than they should be. I'll dig the brass out of storage and get some pics but until I get some headspace gauges for the Carcanos, they too will be in storage. Anyone above have any experience with such markings and know why one get longitudinal marks? kpl

Sounds like you have some pitting, rust or maybe even dirt in the chamber that is causing the scrapes when you eject the spent casings. The casings probably are expanding and tightening up around these areas.

The scrape marks on the cases probably got there while being fed into the chamber. I tried some new PRVI rounds in a couple of mine and the scrape marks were present when the rounds were ejected w/o being fired. Look inside the action up next to the breech face for fine brass shavings, they may be hard to see until you've ran a dozen or so through.
About headspace gages for the 6.5 Carcano, they will be made to saami/cip specs but the rifles were'nt. Don't know how accurate the gages will be.

Thanks Aragirn243 and Vuntage Hunter for the suggestions on possible interior chamber scraping....'will check for brass shavings/grit and also on rounds fed and ejected to see if the scrapes show up without firing and will send in findings with pics.....thanks agian for the helpful suggestions.

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Originally Posted by westkraut

In both cases the actions tightened up after firing

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I don't get that. Please explain.

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Originally Posted by westkraut

until I get some headspace gauges for the Carcanos, they too will be in storage

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As Vintage Hunter has gently hinted, buying SAAMI or CIP gauges is probably ACWOTAM for rifles not built to those standards. Measure the head clearance (described often enough, so please search the forum) on both a new, unfired case and a fired case. That will give you a very good idea of how much stretch is taking place in the body of the case, and will also show that neck-sized reloads are going to be a much better fit. From my experience with Norma cases (weak/undersized rims tearing in the resizing die), I suggest you stick with PRVI. Regard the first firing as a fire-forming exercise and then use neck-sizing only. If you have not got or cannot find a Carcano neck-sized, then simply back off the sizing die about 1/2 turn for resizing.

And clean the chamber thoroughly with a bronze (or brass) brush. Gauze is better, if you can find it*. One or two scratches can be caused by roughness on the feed ramp. Scratches all round indicate a dirty or corroded chamber.

*Bronze gauze is sold as filter material. I obtained mine from a model engineering supply company.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I don't get that. Please explain.



As Vintage Hunter has gently hinted, buying SAAMI or CIP gauges is probably ACWOTAM for rifles not built to those standards. Measure the head clearance (described often enough, so please search the forum) on both a new, unfired case and a fired case. That will give you a very good idea of how much stretch is taking place in the body of the case, and will also show that neck-sized reloads are going to be a much better fit. From my experience with Norma cases (weak/undersized rims tearing in the resizing die), I suggest you stick with PRVI. Regard the first firing as a fire-forming exercise and then use neck-sizing only. If you have not got or cannot find a Carcano neck-sized, then simply back off the sizing die about 1/2 turn for resizing.

And clean the chamber thoroughly with a bronze (or brass) brush. Gauze is better, if you can find it*. One or two scratches can be caused by roughness on the feed ramp. Scratches all round indicate a dirty or corroded chamber.

*Bronze gauze is sold as filter material. I obtained mine from a model engineering supply company.

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Thanks for the additional info. The actions "tightened up" meaning they were stiff and harder to open after firing a round, not that they required struggle but did take more effort to open and clear the spent round. As for the scraping on the casings there were some minot scrapes on unfired rounds after feeding the rounds into the chamber and closing the action fully, but those fired had scrapes (longitudinal and about 3/4-1' in length at 4-6 locations around the casing, no sign of bulging or movement of the primers at all
I have since scrubbed the chambers with a bronze brush and various cleaners and can see no protrusions or lumps/ridges in the chamber wall to explain the scratches. I'll head back to the range and see what marks appear now after what I think/hope was a thorough cleaning.......pics will appear after that. Thanks agian for the info and suggestions.

Further to the puzzling results from firing two of my now scoped Carcano sporters I did thorough cleaning of the chambers and throat of the barrels and did find some gooey material but no brass shavings, just a few signs of rust in the chambers that cleaned up well with solvent cleaner and a bronze chamber brush. Back at the range the actions were still tighter to open after firing but no more longitudinal scrapes were evident on the spent casings ......However, now there were abrasion bands (as can be seen in the pic) around each of the casings just below the neck and a quarter inch above the base of each casing. The bands are about 3/16" wide near the neck and 1/4" wide near the base ....(not good news I suspect). All neck areas showed blackening from blowby and the case lengths of the fired cartridges ranged from 2.084 to 2.091 inches (an average of 0.007" increase in length), while the unfired casings (bullets pulled) were 2.060 to 2.064" in length. None of the primers were bulged or protuded outward or deformed in any way. In the area of where the lower abrasion bands were formed the casing diameter had increased from 0.443" to about 0.448 or o.449" (obvious swelling). The abrasion bands and swelling explain why the actions were stiffer/tighter to open but I am wondering now if these rifles are still safe to use. So now I throw myself upon the advice of people far more experienced with Carcano 6.5x52mm rifles and ask if this looks like two rifles with excessive headspace? and too risky to fire? Any advice would be greatly appreciated......karl:banghead::banghead::banghead :
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http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/...Carcano52A.jpg

I'm no expert but the spent casings look like the spent casings from most of the rifles I own, both civilian and military. Some expansion is normal, the chambers are larger than the cartridges and this is by design.

My military rifles in general show a larger degree of expansion than my civilian ones although the most extensive is from a Savage 99 lever action. I still carry that hunting occasionally and check the casings after each firing, no evidence of separation and no primer issues.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I'm no expert but the spent casings look like the spent casings from most of the rifles I own, both civilian and military. Some expansion is normal, the chambers are larger than the cartridges and this is by design.

My military rifles in general show a larger degree of expansion than my civilian ones although the most extensive is from a Savage 99 lever action. I still carry that hunting occasionally and check the casings after each firing, no evidence of separation and no primer issues.

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Thank you, 'am feeling a bit better with this info. Any concerns over the length of the casings after firing? I have never had any other hunter or milsurp produce casings like this, altho' I have had some with similar levels of blowby. .....................................thanks.....ka rl

It may just be the way the light is hitting it but on the second case to the left( the one next to the standing cases) I can see a bright ring. Possibly partial case head separation. This can be revealed by sectioning a case or two looking for an internal ring just ahead of the web on the inside. I don't know how common this issue is with Carcano's but one thing comes to mind that would cause the hard opening after firing and that is bolt setback, this is caused by the hardened layer of the locking lug shoulders being worn away from excessive use causing a slight recess to form. When opening the bolt the lugs have to ride forward over the part of the shoulder that isn't worn and compress the case a bit to open. Most of the time it's necessary to remove the barrel to positively be able to determine if or not bolt setback is present but sometimes it can be seen with a small dental mirror and/or felt a curved pick if you know what to look and feel for. If no setback is found try swapping bolts from one rifle to another to see if anything changes.

I would think the most lkely cause of hard extraction is a mismatch between the receiver and bolt cam which are located at the front of the bolt and inside the receiver ring, unlike Mausers. I've had some success at easing the primary extraction force by polishing the bolt cams on the front of the locking lugs. Very hard to get at the receiver camming area with the barrel in place, but have done it with some small stones on one rifle. If there's no localized thinning of the case wall interior near the base I'd not worry about the rest. 0.007" stretch ought to be OK. If you reload, neck size the cases. (Just back off the full length size die a bit.)

ETA: If you think these cases look scary, try a Type 38 Arisaka! Or even an SMLE or Ross with "generous" chamber dimensions.

Thank you all for the helpful information. I will check these two rifles over carefully with respect to the bolts and locking lug surfaces and am grateful and relieved to learn that the casing appearance is not as much of a concern as I first thought. There is always opportunity to learn more and so thank you for sharing your knowledge! 'Am most grateful for your help and will report back in a few weeks......thanks again......k:)