The German MG Capture & Trophy

Thousands of German wpn's were taken to Canada as fitting memorials and given to schools, Legions, towns, villages etc as recognition for the war effort. In Canada fortunately many still exist and I would hope this thread encourages recognition of those existing in Canada.

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After the battle.
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Wooden Training 'Guns' - 2 of my original wooden trg Mgs for drill practice. Unit marked and with some moving parts to practice loading and some stoppages. There are some stories of these being used for MG deception purposes but I have no period photos of them in the trench. Imperial War Museum UK has a fine wooden MG08 captured example.
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Wow I never knew that many made it over here!

Barry literally thousands to Canada. Although some of these images show 'captured booty' by the Australians, France, Canada, UK and NZ, statistically Canada took the greatest qty. There is a Register in Canada somewhere which is a terrific document. I have been trying to find the equivalent for any UK war trophy list but with little success.
Mark

Here's one...it's pretty good shape too.Attachment 40497Attachment 40496Attachment 40498Attachment 40499Attachment 40500Attachment 40501

Great pic Browning! I have to say that I never knew....I know state-side one of the 08's turned up in an attic (I believe) and was in a short article in the American Rifleman. Thanks for sharing this with me!

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Battlefield recovery. Quite a famous picture with the British MGC officer carrying the 'easy' end. ''Come on Smudger put your back into it man'' :)

Some things never change MG!!

We have bags of these around here actually. Mostly dewats. There's an '08 in Alberta that was captured by the 10th Calgary and marked as such. All complete with armour and mount and all. Nice. Good paint too. Not for sale though...

Jim you are right and of course those in museums are untouchable. I am looking for the 08's and mounts that are either slowly decaying or are available for disposal. For example there is one very sorry looking MG08 and mount cemented into a school playground. I contacted the school and offered to pay for its removal, not only because it is rotting but it is surely a 'health and safety' issue with ragged rusty metal and bits sticking out! I was informed that it would stay there until it had disintegrated. Now I could partly understand this if it were alongside a memorial but in a school playground??? I am sure you do the same in Canada but it is like Regimental Colours of various Regiments. In UK the 'old' Colours are placed in the Churches and Cathederals. This is lovely and very 'romantic' but of course the flags/ensigns simply decay, and so actually for future generations they just won't be around! In Salisbury Cathederal there are battle scarred Waterloo Colours just hanging there....dying. I know it is a balance between remembering and tradition but if they are not visibly there one day no one will remember. So although thereare plenty of MGs in museums I say save the ones that can be saved!!
Mark

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think any of them are here except in museums. I haven't come across any and I've been pretty much everywhere at one time or the other in the States.

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Originally Posted by bearrowland

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think any of them are here except in museums. I haven't come across any and I've been pretty much everywhere at one time or the other in the States.

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States as in USA or Canada?
Thanks
Mark

I know of two that are in museums here in the US. One is in Shreveport LA. and the other is in Newport RI. The one in Newport came off a Rum Runner and was in tough shape but the rust was removed and it had to be painted to save it but it is capable of firing if one can find the right cloth belt for it.

Some guns are still in the hands of full auto collectors in Canada. I've attended the Wardlow Alberta shoot where an 08/15 was warmed up a bit. They're not just in museums...and they're also out in public, as in Digby Nove Scotia, in front of the Legion, in concrete. It states that the gun was put there in 1917 (I think) to replace the one that dissappeared from that spot in 1915...I have a pic of my kids in front of it.

Mark, US. Sorry about that. We have a military museum here in town (Boalsburg, PA), where the 28th Infantry Division memorials are located. There are a couple watercooled MG's there, but I believe they are Brownings. The best photos I've seen of German hardware, MG wise, has been in this forum.

I will post some pictures of 'Memorial' images sent to me by wonderful people shortly. These are from Canada and the USA. This image always makes me smile.
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Beautiful Memorial.
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I like the bloke in the front wearing boxing gloves.

I do believe that rum "jar" is feeling pretty light. Classic pic, I hope it was taken on the 11th. and they all made it home with the trophys.

Mark, I should mention that we have an 08/15 in our reference collection. It's an RH.M.&MF., Sommerda,#3187,marked 7K GW2. Unfortunately the list of trophys does not include serial #s so we don't know this gun's story other than it ended up on PEI [one of many]. It is also missing quite a few bits so I doubt if it will ever join our working reference collection. Thanks again for the pictures. Steve Knechtel.

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Another captured by the French!
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Slightly different - captured vickers fixed to the schlitten.
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They are also holding P-14 rifles. Odd that. Who were issued P-14's?

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Who were issued P-14's?

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English troops...

This is just a reverse of the photos we usually see. Them posing with their captured clobber...

Which English troops? I thought they all used SMLE's and a few Long Lees. Even though they made lots of P-14's.

I suppose you mean by Regiment? Specificly? It doesn't really matter anyway. There they are in the pic.

There was once a Maxim at the little Eastern Townships bridge town of Ascot Corner, Quebec. It was there when I was a child, but when the road was widened it disappeared. Many years later, I saw it at a fellow's house. He was selling something or other, and I went to have a look. The story I remember was he made the authorities an offer they thought was better than letting it rust to oblivion.

That said, I know of some assorted artillery tubes that were deliberately rescued by uniformed men with green painted trucks, so they wouldn't fall into disrespute or be disrespected.

In terms of Memorial Weapons, specifically WWI German MGs, there are not that many on public display in the USA. In Uk I would almost say none. The vast majority are in Canada where they have preserved their heritage wonderfully. In the US I suspect with such a large live firing fraternity that in years gone by spare MGs that was not essential for memorials were put back into usable condition. Inthe UK WWII required a great deal of spare metal so trophy/memorial guns and tanks were essential raw material and records show museums had to put up a fight to retain 'stuff'. Even now most old churches are missing all their iron fence railings. For Australia the story Is much worse. With the threat of Japanese invasion much WWI German MG material was converted into .303 and then in the 80's under a very severe Govt buy back scheme at high prices, massive amounts were handed in for destruction. consequently out of all our countries I would say Australia has the least material now outside of museum collections.
mark

I can't fathom the amount of BALLS that it took a man to " Go over the top" and face a trench line bristling with those guns. I often wonder do we still have that level of manliness to willingly walk to our death. Thank you to ALL the veterans.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

I often wonder do we still have that level of manliness to willingly walk to our death.

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I guess you haven't been following the news papers...

What?? Did I miss the 2nd battle of the Somme?

I agree. I often wonder what the poor bastards in the second wave thought on the first day of the Somme. "Our artillery barrage will cut the Kraut wire and wipe out their pillboxes, and you boys can just stroll across No Man's Land....". You watch the first wave go over the top and get completely annihilated, then you get the order to follow them and become the second half of the single biggest defeat ever suffered by the BRitish Army. I can't even imagine what that must have felt like. I don't consider myself a chicken, but I'm pretty sure I'd have been going over the top wearing breeches wet on the front and brown on the back.....

Ed

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

What?? Did I miss the 2nd battle of the Somme?

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No, the whole last ten years of war...

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I suspect the lads in this photo are not German but from one of the Baltic states, just after WW1.

I recall that a copuple of these short-lived countries were equipped with a motley assortment of stuff to "kick-start" their forces. There are photos showing troops wearing German uniforms and helmets (of several late-war styles, and armed with P-14s and Vickers gun). Can't say I remember MG-08 sled mounts, though.

About three years ago, I saw what I believe are two of those P-14s in the hands of a collector in Queensland, Oz. They have a small, about 13 x 40mm brass plate on the right side of the butt. And the bores were atrocious.

Saw a CBC interview of a surviving vet of the Newfoundland regiment. He was asked why he did not just stay behind when the signal was given to initiate this disaster. He responded that he had just not thought of doing so!

When the order to move forward was given, there were MPs and officers in the trenches with revolvers drawn. Their job was to execute for cowardice, any that failed to go over the top when ordered. It wasn't just a matter of it not occurring...

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one of my favourites.
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Thank You MG1918,
I just went through the 3 topics you posted on the MG08 and found it fascinating and the period photo's to be outstanding.

Thanks again
Semper Fi
Phil

Phil no problem. As a collector of WWI German MG the period photos (generally postcards) are very useful, especially now with fakes/repros being sold on the market. It seems the German machine gunner crews were very keen on taking photos of themselves in the field! :beerchug:

another captured MG ready to take home....
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Attachment 60302
damaged and captured.

Attachment 60303

In the Vickers/lewis thread ref MGC you can see the superb sangster auxiliary tripod fitted to the Vickers. Here you see a captured example fitted to a MG08, with extra padding as the Vickers barrel jacket is slightly smaller. Great photo.
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A great deal of German weapons were given to the American Legion after WW1. Most of it is gone today, I'm guessing much was stolen over the years.

Here is eastern PA I know of two such guns

1 is a 08 on the sledge mount, visible from the road outside of the American legion on route 313 in Quakertown PA. Never stopped to closely examine so I have no idea how rough.

2) is a MG 08/15, the bipod model. Was a American legion trophy gun, near Jenkintown. A lot of the American Legion posts dumped their trophy guns after 1934 and this is one such gun. Cam with a nice bullet hole in the jacket and missing the lock mechanism, as it was taken out of the American legion basement with 40 Gew rifles around 1935~36.

To my knowledge the 2nd gun is not papered. Last I saw it was in the hands of the son of the guy who got it out of the American legion, that was back in the 1990s. Not sure if he is still alive, but his daughter married a local competitive shooter, so I suppose it is someplace in eastern PA.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

I suspect the lads in this photo are not German but from one of the Baltic states, just after WW1.

I recall that a copuple of these short-lived countries were equipped with a motley assortment of stuff to "kick-start" their forces. There are photos showing troops wearing German uniforms and helmets (of several late-war styles, and armed with P-14s and Vickers gun). Can't say I remember MG-08 sled mounts, though.

About three years ago, I saw what I believe are two of those P-14s in the hands of a collector in Queensland, Oz. They have a small, about 13 x 40mm brass plate on the right side of the butt. And the bores were atrocious.

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The P14s with Brass or Copper tag in butt across Disc are Dutch Post-WW II, (Indonesian Independence) and sold off by Indonesia in the 1980s ; hence the Atrocious Barrels. I have two, a P14 complete (good Barrel) and an M17 Police Carbine (convt. 1948, Marechaussee) both Dutch Plated.

The Soldiers with the Vickers on the Schlitten Lafette and the P14s are Probably Estonians, one of the Three New Baltic States, which received a lot of British Equipment in .303 after WW I. Latvia and to a Lesser extent, Lithuania, also used .303 calibre equipment...but also Mosin Nagant and Mauser calibres/Rifles. ( RSAF Enfield used up a lot of CLLE Parts in 1920-22, making "Short Rifles" for the Baltic Orders, and Kynoch supplied Millions of rounds of .303 Mark VII in the 1920-1930 period.)

Doc AV
Brisban

Any working machine-gun, along with ammo and spares, is not to be sneezed at.

The Germans certainly recycled a LOT of allied MGs, being quite keen on the Vickers as an “Ersatz” Mg-08 and the Lewis, for its lighter weight than the Mg-08-15.

They didn’t just use them as training weapons, but deployed them in actual combat.

I have a couple of books on the Battle of Fromelles, (1916 rematch). Peter Barton's book, "The Lost Legions of Fromelles" makes mention of this "recycling" and has good notes and some photos of assorted weapons on the front line.

It also contains colour copies of the German battle maps from the Bavarian unit that held the position.

These, and aerial photos, helped find the German-dug, mass graves of many of the "missing" Australians who were killed in that battle.