My best No. 5

A pre-'68 import indicated by 'ENGLAND' stamped on the left side of the buttstock socket and no importer stamp, it was proofed in Birmingham, stamped on barrel aft of flash eliminator group. Appears to be 'oil blackened' with vivid electro penciling, the s.n. brighter and deeper, bolt and fore-end numbers match (no number stamped on magazine), with '0' bolt head, pristine bore. The 'rack number' appears to be two letters, perhaps someone can help me here as to it's meaning. Thanks for looking/comments, Don
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4d8a69a6-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6dcb6a27-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...031c07b4-1.jpg

I really have to get me a No 5!

Sweet looking rifle you have there mate.

Beautiful carbine! No5's are my fave!

An "FR" in paint? And on the opposite side than usual. Fred Roberts certainly got around...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

An "FR" in paint? And on the opposite side than usual. Fred Roberts certainly got around...

---

What the heck could that 'FR' represent? Perhaps not military related? Any thoughts if it's not Fred's? Cheers, Don

Could be Factory Repair. As for it being upside down, don't forget that most of the big armouries used to rack their No5's upside down - on the muzzle - with the bolt open, just to preserve the old rubber butt pads. The heat used to cause the oil to run down into the trough that the butt plate sat, soften it and the weight of the rifle would just squash the rubber to a sticky gooey mess. An easy fix UNLESS the bloody male/female thread of the butt plate screw had corroded together. Then you have to rip off the old rubber pad and cut the screw. But even that was a chore on some because on some No5's, there was a steel plate between the butt and the rubber pad. If this was rusty too and the butt plate had stuck to it it was a drill it out job. Good idea until the whole bolt rotated with the drill!

Hey......... that's brought back some memories!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Could be Factory Repair. As for it being upside down, don't forget that most of the big armouries used to rack their No5's upside down - on the muzzle - with the bolt open, just to preserve the old rubber butt pads. The heat used to cause the oil to run down into the trough that the butt plate sat, soften it and the weight of the rifle would just squash the rubber to a sticky gooey mess. An easy fix UNLESS the bloody male/female thread of the butt plate screw had corroded together. Then you have to rip off the old rubber pad and cut the screw. But even that was a chore on some because on some No5's, there was a steel plate between the butt and the rubber pad. If this was rusty too and the butt plate had stuck to it it was a drill it out job. Good idea until the whole bolt rotated with the drill!

Hey......... that's brought back some memories!

---

Is this when the No4 butt got put on.

Am I missing something? It looks like a No5 butt to me

No when changing the original butt and it all went to S tore I n H igh P laces. Retirement must be agreeing with you i expected a dig back.:thup:

The rifle above doesn't seem to be a candidate for "Factory Repair", unless it was something minor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

The rifle above doesn't seem to be a candidate for "Factory Repair", unless it was something minor.

---

Although 'oil blackened' was not a standard finish out of the factory.

That's true for large parts on Enfields. But early US '03s and previous did utilize that "finish" on receivers. I'm thinking that this No.5 is wearing it's factory finish, though, whatever it is. Looks like it might be Suncorite or similar, but can't be sure from the phtos.

Perhaps it is suncorite and I just assumed oil blackened. Most of my suncorite finished Enfields are obvious due to that paint flaking wear appearance. Are the post war No.4Mk2's suncorite? If so I have a '54' 'Irish contract' in the wrap and a like new AF55, I could compare the finish to. Thanks, Don

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

That's true for large parts on Enfields. But early US '03s and previous did utilize that "finish" on receivers. I'm thinking that this No.5 is wearing it's factory finish, though, whatever it is. Looks like it might be Suncorite or similar, but can't be sure from the phtos.

---

Suncorite was a post war finish. A different type of paint was used on sten guns etc. during the war. As Peter Laidler says if it went through the workshops it was phosphated and painted.

Not quite so Gary. It's original because the markings were engraved after finishing. It's the original Suncorite 259 over phosphate, (Parkerizing). It became the standard finish for British small arms in 1944 starting with the Sten Mk.5 and was used on everything until just a couple of years ago when it became obsolete in MoD service.

Looking at that No5 from an Armourers point of view, I could just tell, at the outset, that when that rifle had gone past the bead blasting operator, into the phos. tanks and through the spray/bake ovens, the designation and serial number would have been obliterated! There'd be maybe twenty of them now numberless so we'd be sifting through the AFG1045 paperwork trying to identify serial numbers to re-stamp or engrave on the bodies.

You can see what I mean................... 100 rifles will go INTO the workshop system and 100 will come OUT but whether they come out with the same serial number that they went IN with, is quite another matter. Fazakerley No4's, 5's Stens and Sterlings at their best! The best of all were the Sterling made Sterling SMG's where the number was engraved about 1" deep and strangely, Owen guns where the number was stamped by an 8' tall gorilla wielding a hammer and a set of number stamps

I'm willing to bet that that painted "FR" is brother to the "FR" stamped in woodwork, and is nothing to do with FTR/factory repair at all.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

I'm willing to bet that that painted "FR" is brother to the "FR" stamped in woodwork, and is nothing to do with FTR/factory repair at all.....

---

Agreed, then what about "Field Repair" ?? Perhaps something much more minor was repaired ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

I'm willing to bet that that painted "FR" is brother to the "FR" stamped in woodwork, and is nothing to do with FTR/factory repair at all.....

---

Better stated than my earlier post, but given the overall good condition of this example, I begin to wonder if it isn't posibly the marking applied by a post-service arms dealer. Hence the "Fred Roberts". Odd that it hasn't shown up in the EMERs or other official documents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

Better stated than my earlier post, but given the overall good condition of this example, I begin to wonder if it isn't posibly the marking applied by a post-service arms dealer. Hence the "Fred Roberts". Odd that it hasn't shown up in the EMERs or other official documents.

---

Its exactly what I think:

I am sure that "FR" was an identification mark used by some surplus dealer or agency - or a disposals inspector - during the late 50s to 1960s. I think its a designation of new and used rifles, and new contract woodwork, that were set aside for export orders and surplus sales. Probably the mark was used to differentiate items selected out from the mountains of surplus in the various government depots. This would explain the "FR" on all that Pakistani wood that appears to be UK-made, and the many, many apparently mint or un-repaired rifles that appear with "FR" stamped or painted on the butt.

I wonder if there is anyone still around from UK Interarms who might be able to shed light on this?

:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

I'm willing to bet that that painted "FR" is brother to the "FR" stamped in woodwork, and is nothing to do with FTR/factory repair at all.....

---

Here is the only 'stamping' on the Butt:https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...304ead7e-1.jpg

Don: Weld it into a solid blob and take it with you to Beltring. Great to sit around the Vickers with or a short crutch if the Vickers topples over on you. :-)##
Heading over this summer ??

Will be in our cottage in Twyford, Melton Mowbray, from May on. Cheers, Don

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warren

Don: Weld it into a solid blob and take it with you to Beltring. Great to sit around the Vickers with or a short crutch if the Vickers topples over on you. :-)##
Heading over this summer ??

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drweiler

:Here is the only 'stamping' on the Butt:

---

Thats a different "F", probably a Fazakerley mark.

Its the painted "FR" on the butt that might belong to the mysterious "FR" clan....