Of all the rifles you have owned or handled which would you pick? Which battle proven boltaction rifle used in WWI or WII has the best fit and finish, the "off the assembly line" quality?
I would have been proud to carry a No.I Mk.III Lee Enfield.
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Of all the rifles you have owned or handled which would you pick? Which battle proven boltaction rifle used in WWI or WII has the best fit and finish, the "off the assembly line" quality?
I would have been proud to carry a No.I Mk.III Lee Enfield.
I like the No.1 MKIII as well .... :thup:
Regards,
Badger
I'd pick a #4 Mk.1 (T) and be very happy with that.
Scrmblerkari
I think of all the "Battle Proven" bolt action rifles I've seen, the GeW 98 has "the best fit and finish and off the assembly line quality", but if in battle, I'd prefer to carry a Lee Enfield No 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oatmeal Savage
I didn't include the Argentine M1909, the Brazilian M1908, nor any of the M1935 Mausers, as they weren't "Battle Proven" IMO.
Of the "Battle Proven" rifles of ww1, I would say the M1918 BAR, but if I had to take a bolt gun, I would say a SMLE MkI***.
For WW2, that depends... do you include carbine-length guns? If so, the StG44 - hands down. If not, then it would be hard to beat the M1 for reliability and volume of fire. If I had to choose a bolt action, I would probably take a SMLE MkIII*.
I prefer the truely typical English flavor of the No1 Mk3. So much fine tuning, reminds me of what it takes to keep a Brit bike from the 60's going. Oh and yes, it's been doing great in battle for a few decades, so, it's ok on that side too!
Lou
For fit, finish etc. the 1886 Lebel is hard to beat. Even the wartime ones were still of excellent quality. The tube mag is a big negative, though. :( I'd still take a Mk.III L.E any day, if I had to go to war.
I'd say a Lee Endield SMLE No1 MkIII* too.
A No. 4 for me. If issued with Optics all the better.
Dimitri
"Fit and finish" in a military rifle just isn't a real concern to me, especially if I'm using it in combat. Look at the wartime Mosin-Nagants, not what you'd ever mistake for a high quality, finely finished rifle. I'm sure those on the receiving end of Red Army rifle fire couldn't tell the difference.
If I had to pick a bolt-gun to fight with, it would be a No.4. Just like the one the Army lets me play with.
bolt action rifle- M1917
semi auto- Mi Garand
more modern assault rifle- SLR L1A1
LMG- Bren Mk3 or in 7.62mm
GPMG- Mag 58
Cheers
NED
As an old feller with over 50 years of shooting the .303 SMLE, followed by the N0.4, my choice out of these two would be my 1915 Enfield FTR'd by Lithgow for the Korean War in 1952, and purchased by me in 1958. I'm only saying this because I find the open sight of the MK III* Enfield is better for snap-shooting than the aperture sight of my 1942 BSA No.4.
Both rifles are on par as to accuracy.
Having said that, I have found over the years that a good Boer War 7 x57mm Mauser will shoot tighter groups than the above two rifles.
Generally speaking, there are a great deal of military rifles (not shot-out ones, of course) that are known for great accuracy. A lot has to do with you "fitting" the rifle, as well as handling the recoil. My Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen Model 1894 rifle made by STEYR in 1896, and brought back from the Boer War shoots very well due to it's butt shape,pistol-grip and light recoil. I'm only using this as an example of a military rifle combining stock comfort, as well as a mild recoil, which unfortunately did not apply to most service rifles used in WWI & WWII. The Finnish Nagant M39 is a very accurate rifle also, and I'm sure that someone will confirm that the WWI Gew. '98 & the WWII Kar.'98 are equally as good.
It's all a matter of personal choice really, as fortunately for most of us, we haven't been in a tight spot to talk about actual battle experience using a bolt-action military rifle designed over a hundred years ago.
Has to be a late issue FAZ No 4 solid reliable and effective.
rhodders
.
I would have to choose an M1903-A3, the final and best
version of the Springfield series.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...A3CSSA21-1.jpg
I'd have to opt for the Parker Hale M82 sniper rig, always had a thing for the perfect fat barreled gun and the P/H fits the bill quite nicely-SDH
My pick would be an early production Longbranch No4 Mk1 not a *
I would choose the 1903 Springfield in 30-06 reliable,accurate,compact enough to be used in tight quarters and dosnt beat the crap out of you.Besides I have one and love it.Graham
I would go with the Garand, but as this is bolts only I say the Swede M96.
Honestly, I think the Mle1916 Berthier was a superior French WW1 rifle to the M1886/93. It was just as well built, lighter, handier, and MUCH faster to reload with pre-loaded charger clips.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCLOGGER
I love the No4 Mk1*, but for me it would have to be the 1903 Springfield.
Skeet1
As much I love my Mle.1886 "Lebel"s and not to offend them to much by not saying that they are the best and they know they are, my other vote would be the Type 46 Siamese/Thai Mauser .... excellent workmanship and very accurate under-rated firearms
These weapons were used in combat:
1. Thailand fought France in 1940-41 over disputed territories in French Indochina ... Franco–Thai War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. Thailand fought the Japanese on December 8, 1940 when they invaded Thailand ... Japanese invasion of Thailand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
3. Thailand fought the Chinese in the Shan States from May 10, 1942 to January 15, 1943 ending with a mutual cease-fire after they had captured these States up to the Chinese border.
Patrick
Without a doubt the 1903 Springfield fit and finish was by far better than any battle rifle I have seen. If the question had not involved being USED in WWI and WWII I would have said the Swiss K31.
Skeet1
Was not really used by the Swiss in the War unless you count them pointing them at the imprisoned Allied Air Crews that bailed or crossed their territory to please the Germans. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by skeet1
Dimitri
I have to go with my M96 Swedish Mauser from the Carl Gustav arsenal. That 6x55 mm just keeps on going and the metallurgy on a rifle dated 1900 is superb. :super: With the right ammo my Finnish M28/30 is a little more accurate but it looks like a "canoe paddle" :yikes: So if "fit & finish is the criteria I have to go with the Swede.
A lee enfield for sure.
Big surprise, but for fit & finish I'd say a Springfield 1903 MK1 with a Pederson device in my kit. If was in battle though I,d say a M17 or P14 if in WWI or a M1-D in WWII.
My Smith-Corona Springfield 1903A3.
My Winchester M 1917.
I have to agree with you completely on this finely crafted instrament of warfare!Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorxring
That's a very tough question Oatmeal Savage, but a very good question to ponder!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oatmeal Savage
(PS - I'd really like to know sometime how you came up with 'Oatmeal Savage' as you user name!) :)
I mostly have American WWII weapons and I've shot them quite a bit and re-loaded them in the field, ect. At times I've thought to myself which one I'd actually want to use in battle during the war.
First hand knowledge is why I bought them to begin with and I've learned more than I ever could have from reading, watching archived films, ect.
(Hmm, just one gun...)
I love shooting M1 carbines because of they are light to carry, quick target acquisition, and semi-auto, but the actual quality, fit and finish, and firepower were minimal a best. (They were only 'tools')
They were a product of unbelievable American mass production from many different companies for a quick need of a small weapon that was easy to carry by officers and non-front line combatants, but they became popular with many front line soldiers.
Porbably because they were so easy to carry. (JMO)
All the parts were kept to extreme standards and any part from every manufacturer would work in every M1 carbine.
(Hmm?) :dunno:
I wouldn't want an M1 carbine for actual battle though - They were never intended to be a front line weapon in the first place, and their durability and firepower is questionable at best.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...carbine2-1.jpg
For fit and finish, light weight, superb bolt action function, reliability, tack driver accuracy, ease of use, fire power, and shear beauty, nothing in the world touches the 1903-A3. (The final incarnation of the WWI M1903)
The 1903-A3's have some stamped steel parts replacing some of the milled parts of the earlier 1903's, but it was American production ingenuity for faster production without losing functional quality - The stamped parts were still blued and look great!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/09/555-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...104Large-1.jpg
My 1903 Mark I is a nice piece of history, but I prefer my updated 1903-A3's for actual shooting. (For one, the newer sites work so much better)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../09/1903-1.jpg
I've thought about this before and If I was really going to war back then probably use my M1 Garand....
These rifles were the product of many years of development to perfection and developed over many years before WWII began.
Rapid semi auto fire, rock solid quality, fantastic fit and finish, easy to work on, very accurate, and they used the same standardized American hard hitting 30.06 ammo from WWI design that was also used in the WWI 1903's, BAR's, M1919A4 Machine Guns, etc. (Lots of ammo available)
It became the standard USGI weapon and the majority of US soldiers were issued M1 Garands by mid WWII. As good as any bolt action might be, could anyone say they'd rather have any bolt action against a GI with a semi auto Garand?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/Garnad-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1280x768-1.jpg
Still, I love shooting my 1903-A3 better than any WWII gun I own...
My son likes it the best of all too. Of all my rifles, my son chose 1903-A3 as his favorite rifle when he was 12 years old.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09/son50-1.jpg
Hmm,
(Still thinking) :confused: --
To be ready for battle, I think I'd go with my Thompson SMG - (If mine wasn't 'de-milled!')
(The Thompson SMG was another 'Yank' work of art that was mass produced and refined for mass production needs, while keeping function intact)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mpsonSMG-1.jpg
Of course, I'd have a powerful 1911A1 too that uses the same standardized American .45 ammo dating back to WW1 that is also used in my Thompson. (1911's were also mass produced functional work of art manufactured by many different American companies, and all parts were interchangeable)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...365Small-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...009/09/9-1.jpg
No apologies for leaning toward the American weapons of WWII....
I'm an American and I'm familiar with American weapons -
I have to admit British rifles have a certain mystic, but I don't know very much about them.
(Maybe my next venture someday!)
Dang! I didn't even think of German rifles when choosing 'any' rifle as the best ever!
How can you beat the quality and unbelievable quantity of the German K98's produced?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...98Mauser-1.jpg
Then there were the MP-38's and Germany produced the first real assault rifles, etc, etc..
I give up and can't choose a battle rifle from the era, but I like my 1903-A3's the best of all. - :surrender:
cafdfw, great pics with all that gear good displayed. Wonderful collection. What happend to the prop blade ?
Regards
Gunner
For battle either a #1 Mk 3 or a #4
Hi Gunner,Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner
The prop blade was attached to this 1943 vintage B-13 and nobody knows the details of what happened. The plane crashed in field and the engine was running on impact.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../06/BT13-1.jpg
A friend of mine was in the plane when it went down. He was an old time member of our club and I talked to him at an airshow the weekend before.
He had been getting checked out in this plane type and he told me he thought the pilot checking him out was 'trying to kill me.' (true story)
Hi cafdfw, thanks for the reply. Sorry for that what happend to your friend. Excuse my question, but this colours on the aircraft i`ve seen often on Stearman Cadet and on AT 6 Texans. Is this eventually a colour for trainers ?
Regards
Gunner
Hi Gunner,
Yes, the bright blue and yellow colors were used on early trainers to make them easier to spot when one of them went down, and also to help the cadets from running into each other.
I reality, most WWII trainers were left in natural aluminum, but the bright blue and yellow paint scheme is popular on many restored aircraft.
~ Harlan
Hi Harlan, thanks for your answer. I tried to google the B-13 but without any succses is this , because of the B, a light bomber ? Also in my books i couldnt find it. Please be so kindly and lighten this black hole in my mind.
Thanks and best regards
Ulrich
Lee Enfield, because of this!!
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Hi Harlan, now i think i searched long enough, is this right: Vultee Aircraft, B-13 Valiant Trainer ?
Regards
Ulrich
Bt-13
1903A3. I've owned at least 4 LE variations and each had problems I could not solve. I find the 1903s easy to work on & make to shoot accurately.
I just checked this thread again and I'm so sorry for my typo Gunner.Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner
Yes, It's a B'T'-13. (Basic Trainer)
The designations at time for trainers was:
PT - Primary Trainer
BT - Basic Trainer
AT - Advanced Trainer
~ Harlan
Thank you, Harlan. No problem, now the " light " is on.
Regards
Ulrich
Too many choices! I like the Krag-Jorgensen because the action of the bolt is silky smooth and it fits me just right. Yet, in military bolt competitions I used the No. 4 Mk1*.
For a semi-auto I like the Garand because it too fits me and the balance is quite nice. Yet, in combat I'd prefer my H&K 91.
Have owned and fired many different vinatage WWI and WWII bolt action rifles. Many have come and gone. No question, I have a definite affinity for American made rifles. However, the one that has been the most accurate, best shooting, is a Swede model 38. Mine was originally a model 96 made in 1912 and later converted. Very smooth action and the trigger pull belies a military firearm. The caliber and craftsmanship is a winning combination.
Lee Enfield No.4 hands down.
BT-13 Vultee Valiant. Sold by the hundreds after WWII with the provision that they would NOT be flown due to the plywood parts de-laminating. Most of the R-985, 450HP Pratt's along with the wheels and brakes were installed on Stearman trainers that were then converted to crop dusting applications.
My vote goes to M-1.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...appyface-1.jpg