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Does any one else think that the M151 got a bad rap?
I think most of it's problems stemmed from a lack of proper driver training.
They were very capable as off road vehicles. In a lot of circumstances they were far better than HUMVEEs could ever be.
I liked them a lot better than I ever did the HUMVEEs.
The truck 1/4 ton 4x4 M151 was the only vehicle of the type that I was trained on and used during my time in the Army and Army National Guard. I was trained on the M151 at Ft. Gordon, Ga. as part of Military Police AIT (Advanced Individual Training) most of which was off road, and thought the vehicle very capable and well built. A trainee managed to destroy the transmission in one by putting it in REVERSE and popping the clutch while driving down grade on a dirt road at around 35 miles per hour. I only saw the long oil trail on the road so cannot say for certain what occurred. I was in the back of a vehicle driven by a guy that was a little daft when we came to a really steep (near vertical) grade during field motor march training. An assistant instructor at the top stopped us and said to put the vehicle in some gear and not to use the brake. The trainee driver started down the grade then pushed in the clutch, so the vehicle free-wheeled down the grade and we hit bottom pretty hard and came to a stop. The only thing I remember about it was I was lying on my back with my left leg between the seats, and looking up at the AI at the top. The AI was asking "Are you all right" and the trainee in the passenger seat was yelling for me to get my foot off his hand. I still think I have some residual lower back problems from being bounced around in the back of the vehicle that day.
I didn't have anymore to do with the M151 until a few years later I was a platoon leader in an armored cavalry squadron, and the armored personnel carriers M113 we were training on were replaced by the M151 "Korean" configuration with Machine Gun M60 on a pedestal mount. The platoon leader and the four vehicles in the scout section had these vehicles. The M151 was satisfactory for training purposes, but I would not have wanted to take one into combat as part of an "armored" cavalry unit. The squadron had quite a few of these vehicles in both the armed and unarmed configuration, and it wasn't long before drivers rolled one once in a while. My recollection is vague on this but I think the problem was that the vehicle would roll over suddenly and without warning in a high speed (over 20 MPH) turn.
At annual training I was assigned as the Support Platoon Leader and the M151 I was using was making a noise that didn’t sound good. When I got a break in my missions I sent the driver to the maintenance section to check out the problem. He never got there, the transmission was damaged for lack of lubrication and the vehicle deadlined the remainder of the training cycle. The maintenance section chief got on my case for driving the vehicle with no oil in the transmission, which was amusing to me because he worked full time as the chief of the supporting maintenance shop that was responsible for the vehicle. In any case it was remarkable how many miles/hours the transmission functioned in the sans-lubrication condition.
One of the soldiers in the squadron was into rebuilding (restoring) M151s and traded in them at the time. My understanding is that the government sold M151s at surplus auctions with a disclaimer regarding the roll over danger, and it wasn’t long before someone tried a lawsuit. As a consequence it was ordered that M151 be destroyed and offered as scrap metal. I saw a few of these in a salvage yard that had been flattened by some method and would have taken allot of work to restore. I also heard that there was a "market" for the vehicle data plates for people wanting to get legitimately released M151s, whether disposed of whole or destroyed. I heard that a batch of vehicles, that had some kind of machinery mounted in the rear, were imported from a foreign country, and that they were in pretty good shape.
In later years I was in assignments that involved using M151s for transportation in the field and never had any trouble with them. From my observation and experience the M151 was adequate for purpose except for lack of cargo carrying space. My last unit in the Army Reserve was authorized HUMMVs and I was licensed and from my experience they were an improvement in several ways over the M151. I never had the opportunity to experience a HUMMV off road but was favorably impressed with the stability at road speeds, and cargo carrying capacity.
As with any equipment the design engineering can only go so far, and then operator capability, and maintenance are crucial factors in the success in service of any vehicle. In my experience (more with the M151 than HUMMV) both of the subject vehicles adequate and functional for the tasks that I was involved with.
Just to throw a bone in amongst the big dogs, I've got a Canadian model M151A2 "1974 Pattern Jeep" awaiting shipment. When it arrives, there will be three M151A2s in my city.
All Canadian M151A2s were demilitarized by cutting into fours or in half. When guys found good halves or quarters, they bought enough pieces with enough overlap to weld the pieces back together. Mechanicals are readily available, sheet metal is not.
The distinguishing feature on the Canadian vehicles is the 2" steel tubing roll cage. This kept any number of crews alive. I've seen M38A1 (ie CJ5 Jeeps) roll and the only protection was the windshield frame. The M151 series windshield is lighter and less forgiving.
The M151's we had were all taken and fitted with roll cages. A couple years later they took them all and we were issued HUMVEE's. I have never seen a place that a HUMVEE could go that a MUTT couldn't but I have on many occasions put a MUTT into places that a Hummer couldn't even dream of going.
I just read the Wikipedia article on them. Sounds like the original independent suspension featured swing axles in the rear, like the Corvair. If it handled anything like the Corvair it must have transitioned to violent over-steer/rollover very quickly with no warning. When I was a teenager my father bought a Corvair. I quickly learned about this, luckily without spinning into a 100 year old oak tree. After you learned the technique, the Corvair was fun to drive fast, but I would not recommend turning 18 yr old draftees loose with a similar handling vehicle.
The issues were a high center of gravity and narrow track width coupled with idiot drivers. The very same high center of gravity and narrow track width coupled with the four wheel independent suspension that allowed the tires to keep better contact with the terrain for better traction are some of the things that made the MUTT such a capable off road vehicle. You just couldn't drive it at 60 mph around corners.
The M151 had "A" arm suspension front and rear. "A" arms cause the tire to tuck in corners. An extreme corner will send it rolling because both front and rear inside tire to tuck. The M151A1 had the same suspension but had limiting straps while the M151A2 had a redesigned rear
suspension. Basically the M151 and M151A1 suspensions are the same with the A1 having a limiting strap.
I know a number of people with M151s and M151A1s and if driven sanely and watching speed going into a corner they are fine. Now, put a 19 or 20 year old behind the wheel and look out! ;)
M151 rear suspension:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/04/dol-1.jpg
M151A1 rear suspension field mod "quick fix" and rather crude limiting strap. The ROP kit had a neater strap.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ge039ea1-1.jpg
M151A2 rear suspension which changes the "A" arm for a tracking arm so motion is straight up and down:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/m1518m-1.jpg
Not an M151A2 but the same type of suspension.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ndrawing-1.jpg
I spent several years as a Military Police officer driving all day every day (and lots of nights) in an M151A1. If you drove them sanely on the pavement, they were perfectly safe. If you took them around a corner too fast, they would flip without any advance warning. I took quite a few dead soldiers out of overturned M151s. I lost a couple of my MPs when their jeep flipped. But in every case, they were hot-rodding the jeep.
Once when I was MP Station Commander at Fort Carson, a young soldier came in and said, "Sir, I don't know whether I had an accident or not. My jeep went on its side on a curve, slid for aways, then hit a bump and hopped back up on its wheels." He was lucky.
They were good anywhere but in deep mud. One night, I got mine stuck in some mud in the bottom of a ravine. I radioed for a tow. The deuce that came out couldn't find me. I fired a flare. The flare started a grass fire. I was easy to spot then.
They were never sold legally to the public but some went out the back gate and others that were cut were welded back together. I never was clear whether this was because of a liability issue or because of complaints from auto companies that sold 4WD vehicles of unfair competition. Back in about 1970 the replacement cost was around $30,000 (a huge amount for a vehicle in 1970!). Today you can pick up a nice one for under $10,000.
I have an uncut original M151A2 (with the hugely improved rear suspension and a roll cage) parked in my garage. I consider it safe but I don't drive it aggressively. It's my "Time Machine." When I drive it, I'm 22 years old again! It will go anywhere. But it won't go anywhere fast.:rofl:
I later drove military Humvees. They are huge by comparison, actually a 5/4-ton truck. They are good over rough terrain but I much prefer the little M151 to get in and out of tight spaces.
Finally, I refuse to call them MUTTs. I never heard that term used in the Army. We called them jeeps (small "j") or quarter-tons. MUTT was just a name the Army dreamed up to avoid the copyright on the Jeep name. But we never used it.
They were a good vehicle. They got a bum rap because, well, most GIs are just teenagers.
Originally the 151s & A1s were sold intact and rebuildable. When to many untrained stupid civilians began to get hurt with them, and the lawsuit mentioned above came about, the Military began to cut the suspension arms before they were sold.
This didn't stop the enterprising individuals from rebuilding them so the military then began to cut them in half sideways with a torch - I've got a 72 A2 setting in my back yard that was so cut. When the military came to the realization that this was not stopping the enterprising individuals from rebuilding them - I know of 2 people/companies that made a jig to properly weld them back togather - they then began cutting them into quarters. When that also didn't work they then started crushing them with a bulldozer or tank. I've never heard of any of them being rebuilt.
I occasionaly drove a gun jeep (M151A1) in Viet Nam. I never had a problem, but I had been trained on them (at Ft Carson) and knew how to drive them so never had a problem. Course no one but my Nung gunner would ride with me on convoy escort. A 151 with no windshield is fun at 60+ mph. I never once had my Beret blown off my head either!
Sarge
The M151A2s were crushed or cut in Canada. Several fellows have rewelded vehicles and registered them as new. The licencing bureau doesn't care except that there is a bill of sale and a vehicle appraisal from a particularly approved individual. If he is convinced that the glass, lights, seatbelts, brakes, exhaust and horn, etc work to 1970's standards, he will issue the safety certificate. However, the tough one is getting insurance. My normal carrier doesn't take new policies on vehicles over 20yrs old, unless they have had that vehicle for a while. In come the specialized companies. Mine wants C$140 a year for occassional use, no work commutes and no off-roading.
My grandfather left me an A2 when he passed away. I've had it for about 10 years or so. I love driving it, and if you respect the vehicle, be safe and drive carefully, it's a lot of fun. It's the other idiots you have to look out for. I have parts on order for a complete brake job. My 14 year old daughter likes driving it, and she can up shift, but hasn't gotten the downshift thing yet.
My Canadian M151A2 reweld is safetied and plated. I've been on the road for three weeks!
We have one running around here and it's used as a vehicle not a collectable.
A business here took "ruined surplus " mutts and repaired them to sell for $6000. I test drove one and really wanted it but it was not to be. It really crawled over a 1ft high log in a field we drove it to with no problem.
I had a 72 M151A2 w/ROPS un-cut. Sold it to a friend that stripped to the bare chassis about 5 years ago to rebuild and there it sets.
I replaced it with a 1979 A2 Marine FAV, one of the last 6 converted at Barstow, it is MINT less than 1000 miles on it.
I own a pair of M151A1s and I do have fun working on them when I can.
I do have an operators manual dated 1968. And in this manual has a section on driving the M151s.
This section looks to be omitted from later manuals.
Has anyone notice this?
By the way, these two are #7 and #8 that I have owned.
The other 6 I sold or traided.
Attachment 62148Just to toss a pic in for bystanders... Here's a 151... I used them, the one before and the ones that came after. When we went overseas, the CJ pattern jeeps Canada had were demilled by blowing them in several pieces... The 151 you don't see much in Canada and there ARE a few Iltis, but scarce. Seems either you love them or you don't. I finished with the military vehicles and left it at that...I don't recall many accidents with ours...
Just in case, that picture is the M151A2. It's rear spenchion is way different that the M151 or the M151A1.
Also, the A2 has composite lights.
The minors of these vehicles never meant much to us, and we didn't really know. We just drove them...or put the red tag on the steering wheel, whichever the case was.
After my tour in SEA, I was sent to 2/10 Cav at Camp Kaiser in South Korea around March 31 or May 1 of 1969. About three or four months after that they called a formation and asked for volunteers to transfer to the post MP company as they were short personnel. Despite the unwritten rule of never volunteering for anything I knew that the MPs carried their passes in their pockets and rarely ever froze their butts off going "out to the field". Nothing like repairing a broken track in below zero weather. Anyway, within days I was an MP with 7th MP Co. Detachment 1, the main company being at Camp Casey. It was good duty and I got to drive an M151A1 daily for the rest of my service commitment. At 18/19 years old and off post (out of sight of those that would write you up) we pressed those vehicles pretty hard without any problems that I remember. I drove up and down some seriously steep hills off road in 4WD on those skinny scalloped army tires. The picture is me sometime in 1970 in front of the PMO. The all black jeep you see the front of belonged to CID. I also never heard our jeeps called Mutts, but then I never heard the 50 cal machine gun called "ma deuce" or the M79 grenade launcher called a "thumper" either.
:thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpaul
Probably not Infantry!Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpaul
Sarge
We called our .50s ...fifties... Didn't have the M79s and as for the jeeps, we called them jeeps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge 13
In Vietnam I was with 1/10th Cav, indeed not an Infantry unit. However, we were attached to and mostly provided road security for the 4th Infantry Division. Our M48 tanks were equipped with a .50 cal on the TC's cupola. I never once heard anyone refer to it as "ma deuce". Even though they were not a primary part of our mission, I was on a few OPs, LPs, and patrols and was familiar with and sometimes was issued an M79 while humping ammo for the M60. I never heard it referred to as anything but M79. I always thought those terms were for green zone types or John Wayne movies, but I am often wrong as my lovely wife will readily attest. Tom
Paul Dickson in his book "War Slang"
P. 292: thumper. (1) squad member who carries an M79 grenade launcher, also known as thumper man. (2) The M-79 grenade launcher. The term derives from the characteristic sound of the launcher.
My association with the M-79 was limited to basic training, and all further assignments where grenade launchers were authorized we had M-16/M-203s. Never heard the M-79 referred to as "thumper" or the grenadier referred to with any slang term. As to "MUTT" and "ma deuce" Dickson doesn't mention these terms. I never heard or called the M-151 anything but "jeep." As to "ma deuce" I'm sure this term originated in military service, but I never heard the term until I read the popular illustrated history publications, and overuse by people that want to be military chic who probably never set the headspace and timing on a M-2 HB .50. We had cupola mounted M-2s (previously mentioned) on the M-48A2 tanks we trained on, and the side mounded M-2 arrangement and cramped conditions of the cupola was a constant headache for the tank commander to keep operational.
BTW I couldn't hit anywhere near where I wanted M-79 rounds to go, but was far more accurate in placing rounds with an M-203.
Remember the M151 Mutt well, was in army 68-70. Drove one a fair number of times and yep one did not want to make a quick turn in it while going fast. I learned that quite quick about driving the Mutt.
Was in Vietnam in 1969 in a Mech Inf Bn in the 9th Divison. Worked in the Bn S2 section and frequently I had to drive our Mutt somewhere on intel business. Only road to our base camp was a dirt one and our APCs and heavy trucks kept it in pretty bad shape. One didn't drive down this road, better to describe you bounced down this road. About 300 yds away on one side of the road was a treeline. One could always expect a sniper somewhere along the road to put a few rounds in your direction. Sniper never hit anyone, but as I learned, every once in awhile one of his rounds would be close enough to hear the crack of the bullet fly past the jeep.
Our S2 Mutt had a continuous crack that began above one rear fender well, ran across the rear floor and down the other side of rear fender. By time I'd arrived the crack had been spot welded a number of times and I'd have it rewelded too. Darn mutt would always start and get us where we needed to go. Well, there was one day another S2 guy found himself in a rice field due to something breaking in the steering as he went to turn at the one decent curve on road from our base camp.
At one of the reunions held by my Vietnam Bn every two years at Ft. Benning, I found out what happened to our Mutt after I left Nam. LOL, it was buried at entrance into our base camp, to reduce hole dug by our APCs turning when leaving our base.