BPCR at the range (W/O the blackpowder, so far!) 32-20 Hepburn

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5861f990-1.jpg

If it was mine, I'd be working up some BP loads, but a friend let me borrow this fine piece to test the scissors mould Ideal 115 bullets cast this seek. Using only the proper weight bullets with visual defects for an initial trial, the results were encouraging. Not the 1 1/2" five shot 100yd group done with old factory Winchester ammo the other week, but not horrible. Certainly better than the factory Remington lead bullet loads which would barely stay on paper at 100...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8e435f42-1.jpg
10 shots in 3 1/2". 8 in 2 1/2". First shot out of a freshly cleaned barrel was the left-most. Not disappointed! These bullets all had visual defects, but were within -1/2 grain of 115 gr nominal weight (Pre-lube).

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4ca63503-1.jpg

Also tested the load in some revolvers with good results. [The Army Special outshot the Python (using .38 wadcutters) at 50yds.]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

If it was mine, I'd be working up some BP loads,

---

So would I. If you do, you'll find that you need to clean after every shot to get target-rifle accuracy. I shoot a Swiss M1882 revolver, and the 7.5mm Swiss Ordnance case is close enough to 32-20 dimensions that I use shortened 32-20 cases. By the time I finish a 15-shot target, the grooves are hard to see and the cylinder is ploughing hard through the BP crud, in spite of proper lubrication.

After that little caution, I nevertheless hope that you will be allowed to give it a try! Hint: About 12 gn of Swiss No 1 for a start, maybe up to around 15 gn in the original 32-20 cases.

I clean after the fifth shot. But the first is the only really accurate one. Groups are now a bit less than 30 cm at 100 metres with the very short Werder cav. carbine using only BP. The barrel cleans easily with boiling water. Am still experimenting with the loads and intend to progress to 300 metres.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by villiers

I clean after the fifth shot. But the first is the only really accurate one.

---

Patrick, what is the powder charge, and what is the volume of lube that you have between the wad and bullet?

For BP competition shooting it is common to take an "Ölschuss" i.e clean-bore shot into the berm. Declared before firing, so that it is not counted as a miss!

In effect, this clean-bore shot leaves a soft residue behind that (you hope) stays pretty constant for all following shots - if you have enough lubricant. I would guess you need about 0.4 cc of fairly squishy lubricant to achieve this steady-state condition with the Werder carbine cartridge. If necessary, reduce the charge until you can fit in that much lubricant. Better a consistent howitzer trajectory than a flatter-shooting lead sprayer.

Otherwise you need to clean after every shot (not allowed in military competitions). Cleaning every now and again will not produce the tightest groups.

Some of the buffalo rifle competitors have a flexible "blow tube" that they insert into the breech and breathe through the bore between shots to keep the fouling soft. Fairly common technique from what I've seen, but have yet to try it with a breechloader. It does seem to help with muzzleloaders on dry days from my limited experience.

I don't know if I can convince the owner to try BP in this rifle. Nor is it certain that it will end up in my greedy mitts anytime soon, if ever. Depends on whether he gets distracted by something "shinier".

Muzzle end is about pristine. Seems to be a bit of something going on at the breech, but it doesn't seem to have hurt much!

BTW, the chambers on two of the revolvers are tighter than the rifle, and the OAL was set by the Colt Army Special:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02b8e27e-1.jpg

So there's plenty of room for fine tuning the rifle from this point. Maybe we'll see more of it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

Some of the buffalo rifle competitors have a flexible "blow tube" that they insert into the breech and breathe through the bore between shots to keep the fouling soft. Fairly common technique from what I've seen, but have yet to try it with a breechloader.

---

I have just about given up competitive muzzle-loading shooting, because I don't like jumping up and down like a yo-yo in the desperate attempt to get off all shots in the allotted time. Once I have creaked my way into a good firing position, I like to stay there until the target round is complete. Which is why a Sharps or Rolling Block BPCR is excellent, because I can clean from the breech end without getting up! I also use a flexible blow tube, which is very helpful, in fact vital, for breech-loaders (Snider, Martini, Peabody, M1871 - in fact the majority of military BPCRs). It is a VERY good idea to have the mouth end clearly identifiable, as sticking the sooty end in your mouth is not pleasant!

In this way, I can complete a competition target without getting seriously out of position, doing a half-roll to the left in order to clean the rifle. The time saved by not jumping up and down and getting into position again can be better spent in taking carefully aimed shots!

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

P.S. for Patrick Villiers. Try a blow tube between shots with your carbine. It could produce a considerable reduction in fouling hardness, and thus tighter groups, without you changing anything else at all!

Attachment 42273Attachment 42274Attachment 42275Attachment 42276That is a really nice Hepburn rifle with nice photos. I do not if I should have posted the following information and details because it is not black powder - but black powder could be used.

I have an original Winchester Hi-Wall action, with original Winchester double set triggers. The hammer is the later coil spring type and the new (4140 steel) breech block with small firing pin hole came from the late Ben Rice (Cherry Point NJ). the barrel is Darr and is 1 3/4 inch across the flats chambered for 32-40 Win.

I use a Hoch nose pour mould and the bullets are used in the order they are cast, they are not sized, lubed by your fingers. Each bullet is breech seated with the tool (photo) and only one single cartridge case (index to barrel) is used with 14 grs of smokeless 4227 and a Rem pistol primer. There appear to be alot of advantages in using a lathe turned nose pour bullet mould as the base is always perfect and you do not have to run the bullet through a sizer.

Very impressive, and I like that seater. You are using the old Schuetzen method, and the photos show that the results are excellent. I feel inspired to try that out myself, when the competition season is over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RCS

I use a Hoch nose pour mould and the bullets are used in the order they are cast, they are not sized, lubed by your fingers. Each bullet is breech seated with the tool (photo) and only one single cartridge case (index to barrel) is used with 14 grs of smokeless 4227 and a Rem pistol primer. There appear to be alot of advantages in using a lathe turned nose pour bullet mould as the base is always perfect and you do not have to run the bullet through a sizer.

---

Given the title of the thread, your non-black powder loads seem altogether appropriate! Esp. as the 32-40 is generally considered a BP round.

Have often contemplated working up some loads like that, but it's been purely an academic exercise until this point. Given the current feeding frenzy, obtaining moulds is problematic. (7,65/.303 200gr, .44 and .45 specifically of late.) The Lyman 32-20 115 gr moulds are now gone, too.

The major news at this point is the Hepburn is now available. So time to see if there's funds enough to squander! There's no practical reason to own this rifle- It's severely underpowered for Buffalo Rifle competition, it's too small for deer hunting (but legal) AND not legal for small game in this state, and modifying it would be unthinkable! But it's a joy to shoot...

Y'all reckon US$1k is a horrible price for such a bit o' impracticality? Might have to put off getting new shoes and glasses a little...

Already have a fine mould and reloading tool for the caliber!:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...087b392e-1.jpg

Now that IS impressive! The short barrel Werder´s never going to be that accurate. I blow through the barrel after every round (but don´t think it makes much difference ... maybe the beer fumes clean it a bit). The Werder carbine´s supposed to get 2.5 grammes (38.58 grains) of BP but I can´t get that in together with the grease. The max. load was NOT accurate at 50 metres, so I started again with 25 grains. Am now at 34 grains and trying it out at 300 metres (100 metres was OK). I found that it´s a lot better with bullets that I weigh and only keep the ones within limits. And it does seem to need a cork washer in between the base of the bullet and the grease.

Well, the deed is done, whether the price noted previously was good or no...Now to see if I can duplicate or better the 30 year old factory Winchester ammo in accuracy.

Cast another batch of bullets (~200) using the Ideal mould, but the weight was almost exactly two grains less than the first batch. More consistant, though: well over 100(probably 140 or so) were within one tenth of a grain of 113.0gr. None under 112gr. Not something that is for the impatient! Probably 2 1/2 hours to do that many, and that doesn't include weighing or lubing!

Wonder why the weight difference? Digital scale. The pot was charged using the same materials. Pot and outdoor temps very close both sessions. The mould had been cleaned in between lots, though.

:ugh: Hands down the worst quality control I've ever seen for commercial ammunition.

Found a not quite current box of 32-20 W-W ammo and bought it to see if it could match the performance of the 1970s production which is now sadly all gone. Had fired a few without really looking at the stuff with less than stellar results when a case was ejected that had part of the case mouth pulled away! Eh??? Peered at some of the unfired rounds and was, ummm,... disappointed. Stunned. Actually...:bitch:

Here's a sample:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...da19ab41-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...221651c2-1.jpg

All of this mess is from the same box.

Crimped so fiercely that the brass failed in some and not crimped at all in others! Have never before seen a crimp that sprang the mouth back out in a flare forward of the impressed ring.

After range time was over, we checked new W-W mfg. rounds at a local shop: pretty much the same. Hideous! And near on US$1 per round for this trash.

Fortunately, there's a new lubrisizer at home and 20 sticks of SPG black powder lube freshly purchased along with 100 pieces of new Starline brass.