British MGs in the Falklands War

This question was prompted by the news of PM Thatcher's death and remarks about her decision to retake the Falkland Islands.

There are several famous photos of British troops trudging their way from the beachhead towards battle. There are some showing 7.62 GPMGs positioned as local air defence on the beachhead. Then somewhere, maybe the Osprey book summarizing the campaign had shots of .50 Brownings in UK service. The caption suggested these were found in stores and rapidly issued to troops as the ship armada was being loaded. For whatever reason, I'd never thought much of British use of .50s then or now. Some of those Falklands memories came back listening to stories about the PM of the day.

The question to the collective wisdom is, how many .50cal Brownings would the British Army (or Royal Marines?) have held in 1982? What doctrine would they be using? Are these guns still in service?

There were literally thousands of the .50 Brownings in Ordnance at the time and were used. Generally speaking, these were all ex tank ranging machine guns that had to be re-fitted with grip type back plates and have the maxifort solenoids removed - among other things..... There was never a shortage as such. Mind you, these were the old ORIGINAL type .50" Brownings. Afterwards, some bright spark decided that it would be better if a quick change barrel version could be dreamed up and that's where the problems started............. And start, they did. Big time! Enough said!

Come on in Tankie and Skippy..........

When we got the QCB guns in Gagetown NB, they were no end to trouble. What we found was they were designed to be used with FN ammo and CDN wasn't the right recipe to run them. It had effectively taken the adjustability form the men that had done it for years and made it a higher level maintenance weapon.

O' dear, o' deary me......... Same here. I went over and asked what on earth was going on - and on - and on... To be told that the initial problem was that during a barrel change with the original guns, the crunchies weren't setting the CHS correctly. The argument that a) they seemed to manage from 1925 until then and b) if they ain't doing it right, then teach them until they DO do it correctly fell on deaf ears. After all, it ain't difficult. I appreciate that there are gauges and all the rest of the stuiff but just screw the barrel in until the breech block fails to lock forwards. then unclick until the first full click that it DOES lock and then unclick a further TWO clicks and that it CHS! Fxxxxxg hell....., just how simple CAN it be?

And put them on a soft mount to absorb the recoil !!!!.....

Then try and tell the user (skill at arms INSTRUCTOR) that he was NOT having constant gas stoppages!!

Many years after 1982 it was still a requirement for armourers deploying to the Falkland’s to be trained on .50 it was about the only reason they ran the courses.

In the armoury on the Island there were many many .50 of both British and Argentinean origin.

That's right Skippy. We had one that we brought back to the UK that came from the old submarine that was beached in Gritviken. That one was an old ex British one, complete with the FTR/55 markings.

I think we gave it to the Navy plus the AA mount. No recoil buffers on that! Sort of defeats the object a bit.....

After an enquiry last evening to a good mate of mine who very recently retired from 'A well Know Engineering Company'. In the UK who manufactures the .50" Cal BMG!

It transpires that ALL of the original wartime variants held at Donnington. are now out of Service & have been cut up.

This 'Company' produces the conversion kits to QCB from the original screw in Barrel method.

ALL Brit in Service BMGs are now converted to QCB. & I am reliably informed that visits to Donnington have ceased. To inspect the suitability of what they held there, for conversion to QCB.

The M.O.D now only buy in brand new guns from this 'Company'.

The QCB variant is good in theory, BUT. In practice, because of the amount of metal removed from the Barrel extentions to accommodate this Mod. It weaken's the original design!

Cracks appear in the edges of the extention in a straight line. & this component is now a 'Lifed Item' I believe? IE: so many rounds are to be fired through it before checks are made. & either it is changed before fracture. Or fired until it Fractures!.......:move eek:

There are a lot of complicated procedure on this item during manufacture. Like stress relieving, heat treatment at different temps in different places on this one component alone!

The one thing that came to me a LONG time ago. When defects & Problems arose were: 'They got this right over seventy years ago from the start.' Here we are with all the 'Amazing' Technology & brilliant machinery at our disposal. & we STILL cant get it right!.......

Also, the design has been 'messed' with with the QCB Modification. & the old maxim of: 'If it Aint broke' don't fix it' comes to mind!...............;)

If you think about it. When you start removing metal from somewhere, where it was designed to be originaly. Then why should you be surprised when something fails?....
It's a little more complicated than that really. BUT, a contiuous round hole is machined away in THREE places, creating SIX straight lines within that Hole. Mmmmm, reverberating like a tuning fork during firing................WHY, are 'Designer's' surprised that the componants fails along a straight line?.............A child may well possibly have worked that one out?.....................HOW many Tons per square inch does the .50" Browning round generate?......................NOT really difficult, is it?......

A few original spec Fifties, were gifted to museums, as per normal practice. Peter will confirm this I am confident! :thup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

.50" Cal BMGs In Service
After an enquiry last evening to a good mate of mine who very recently retired from 'A well Know Engineering Company'. In the UK who manufactures the .50" Cal BMG!

It transpires that ALL of the original wartime variants held at Donnington. are now out of Service & have been cut up.

This 'Company' produces the conversion kits to QCB from the original screw in Barrel method.

ALL Brit in Service BMGs are now converted to QCB. & I am reliably informed that visits to Donnington have ceased. To inspect the suitability of what they held there, for conversion to QCB.

The M.O.D now only buy in brand new guns from this 'Company'.

The QCB variant is good in theory, BUT. In practice, because of the amount of metal removed from the Barrel extentions to accommodate this Mod. It weaken's the original design!

Cracks appear in the edges of the extention in a straight line. & this component is now a 'Lifed Item' I believe? IE: so many rounds are to be fired through it before checks are made. & either it is changed before fracture. Or fired until it Fractures!.......

There are a lot of complicated procedure on this item during manufacture. Like stress relieving, heat treatment at different temps in different places on this one component alone!

The one thing that came to me a LONG time ago. When defects & Problems arose were: 'They got this right over seventy years ago from the start.' Here we are with all the 'Amazing' Technology & brilliant machinery at our disposal. & we STILL cant get it right!.......

Also, the design has been 'messed' with with the QCB Modification. & the old maxim of: 'If it Aint broke' don't fix it' comes to mind!...............

If you think about it. When you start removing metal from somewhere, where it was designed to be originaly. Then why should you be surprised when something fails?....
It's a little more complicated than that really. BUT, a contiuous round hole is machined away in THREE places, creating SIX straight lines within that Hole. Mmmmm, reverberating like a tuning fork during firing................WHY, are 'Designer's' surprised that the componants fails along a straight line?.............A child may well possibly have worked that one out?.....................HOW many Tons per square inch does the .50" Browning round generate?......................NOT really difficult, is it?......

A few original spec Fifties, were gifted to museums, as per normal practice. Peter will confirm this I am confident!

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Morning Tankhunter,

A friend of mine works for an engineering company that supplies digital measuring and calibrating equipment to the same company, he was surprised when he entered the workshop to find new BMG's in production....I wonder if anyone has told Browning, afterall we do have a history of blatant copying in this country SA80-AR18, Sterling SMG, Enfield .38 revolvers to name a but a few!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Fxxxxxg hell....., just how simple CAN it be?

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Sure there WERE some that struggled to headspace and time them, but not all of us found them elusive. (The 1919A4 could be worse for some) Besides, with a good condition barrel, these don't wear our without warning. They don't need to be changed at high speed. After action will do fine. The use of near worn out barrels was a peacetime flaw from a bureaucratic poor army. I wouldn't go looking for trouble with a barrel that won't take the full weight of an extended firefight.

Heres some time served M2s, ex ranging guns and one which has had the original manufacturers markings removed (Looks to have been of Fridgidair manufacturing).

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7b9d7a8f-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4969d6ef-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a2149238-1.jpg

I know from my visit in 2010 that there is a M2HB on the AA 4 legged mount thing outside the Royal Enginner/RAF regiment building at mount Pleasant, I believe it may be ex Argentine though.

And because I love sectioned guns, here is my sectioned M2

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...013/04/1-1.jpg

Hello Mr.C! The patent's for the ORIGINAL BMG have long expired. I went into this with the Boss when I worked for said company. However.......it was the way the engineering blueprints were obtained. That was questionable!........But that's another story!!!! ;)

The QCB variant WAS 'Admired' & 'Imitated' (ALLEGEDLY!!!) from FN. But this 'Company's' Variant has minor details that set it aside from the FN Version. A Rep from FN visited whilst I was working there on one occasion. He was NOT pleased with what he saw, & later legal action was threatened. However, this was overcome by pedanticaly pointing out the different aspects of 'This' Company's design. So a Patent Infringment case could NOT be bought upon 'The Company'!..........

I could write a book on the 'Horrors' that are perpetrated within the defence Industry! However, a lot of Peoples jobs would be lost subsequently. & those People have Families to support!

It is well known within the Defence Procurment sector what 'Alledged' Fraud & malpractice goes on. BUT, the 'Agent's from the Procurment Dept don't seem interested!! Perhaps the Wining & dining on a fine scale. & the Expensive Xmas hampers from SOME Companies are 'Possibly' the reason for this?..........

And also well know when contracts for Millions of pounds are up for grabs. Are the 'Pension Fund' Payments executed to secure deals!..............(ALLEDGEDLY!)......;)

Afternoon Mr H,

It never ceases to amaze me how much industrial espionage, copying and outright eye watering waist goes on in Defence circles....quite astonishing.

My friends company also sells measuring equipment to the Defence aerospace sector, this is a typical story involving one of the companies he deals with......a typical example of wasting our money (I am sure your goodself and Peter could add many more tales to this one)

Certain maintenance items for the Tornado GR4 were ordered by a desk bound fighter pilot at Abbey Wood, £3,000,000 worth. These items were supposed to be collected from said company by the MOD...but were never picked up....fast forward two years, a different mahogany bomber pilot ordered the same amount of gear...he was told the last lot never got picked up and were still in storage with the company.......short silence on the phone, followed by.... "Don't know anything about it, make some more"....!!!

This must be a depressingly familiar story to you chaps!!!

Theres your problem mrclark, they put a fighter pilot in charge of procuring equipment for a bomber.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Afternoon Mr H,

It never ceases to amaze me how much industrial espionage, copying and outright eye watering waist goes on in Defence circles....quite astonishing.

My friends company also sells measuring equipment to the Defence aerospace sector, this is a typical story involving one of the companies he deals with......a typical example of wasting our money (I am sure your goodself and Peter could add many more tales to this one)

Certain maintenance items for the Tornado GR4 were ordered by a desk bound fighter pilot at Abbey Wood, £3,000,000 worth. These items were supposed to be collected from said company by the MOD...but were never picked up....fast forward two years, a different mahogany bomber pilot ordered the same amount of gear...he was told the last lot never got picked up and were still in storage with the company.......short silence on the phone, followed by.... "Don't know anything about it, make some more"....!!!

This must be a depressingly familiar story to you chaps!!!

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Hello Mark! only just scratching the surface of cock up's & extrortionately priced equipment for the M.O.D there Mate!

& not forgetting my Favourite maxim which sums up Governments worldwide!...........'Saving Pennies, & wasting Thousands'!.................;)

During the early 80's or so, whenever you needed something and were foolish enough to ask, there'd always be a sharp intake of breath through gritted teeth folowed by the question '.........whoa...... who's budget is this coming from?' Followed by 'HOW many....... or HOW much..........' followed by '....I should co-co!!!!!!' Then, one day, after a chat with an old ex Korea veteran Quartermaster, it all fell into place.........

From then onwards I would always ask for TWICE what I needed, TWICE as much ammo allocation or TWICE as many pyrotechnics or TWICE the mileage allowance or TWICE as......... anyway, you get my drift! Thereafter, whenever I asked for whatever it was I was met with the sharp intake of breath and a splutter into the coffee cup BUT I'd be prepared to compromise - in the name of the economy of the nation of course. I'd come away with slightly more than I ever wanted or needed, the QM was happy knowing that he'd beaten down the cheeky Sergeant or even cheekier Lieutenant or the harrassed Captain with a zillion other crap jobs to do by tea time.

Worked a treat, every time!

In fact, one Summer, I had such a large mileage allowance for the borrowed Land Rover that I was using in Germany, that I was begging the others to make use of it on the basis that unless they did, I'd end up with thousands of miles to spare! The thought of my hard bargained-for mileage allowance PLUS the hard earned loan of a Land Rover for a month would be wasted was something that I wasn't prepared for.

Now THIS is a wandering thread...

Peter, I knew one sergeant back in the '70s who was not above ringing up stores claiming to be a captain (by name) from another unit and say he was sending someone to pick up the previously requested and authorized items (stores' paperwork missing? 'That's not MY problem!'). He'd get what he was after each time - partly, I suspect, because no one else was game enough to try it.