Destructive testing a Ross MkIII

So, I got my hands on a sporterized MkIII Ross (barrel and stock both cut down), and I am planning to do some destructive testing on it as part of a video explaining the myths and realities of the Ross' reputation as a dangerous rifle.

I will be drilling out the safety rivet and demonstrating how to incorrectly reassemble the bolt, and demonstrating it firing unlocked with an empty primed case.

I have also read a theory that the bolt blowouts may have been caused by hangfires. Clearly this could happen if the bolt were manually opened slightly when the round ignited, but it appears some folks think it might also happen if a shooter releases the trigger before ignition and pressure on the bolt face unlocks the lugs. I should be able to get my hands on some junky hangfire-prone .303 to test this possibility.

So, my question is, are there any other theories out there that I should check out? I'm not a Ross expert by any means, and would appreciate input from folks who know much more about them than I. What else, if anything, would you try if you had a sacrificial rifle to use?

FWIW, I have access to some professional high-speed cameras for this experiment, so if I can get it to kaboom there will be some really neat footage of the event.

Thanks!

Ian
Admin, ForgottenWeapons.com

Tanegential to thread, but here's an excellent article in the MKL for future reference ... :)

Ross M-10 Rifle Bolt Disassembly

Also, here's some pics that were emailed a while ago by a member... :thup:

Attachment 42033Attachment 42034Attachment 42035

(Click PICS to Enlarge)

Regards,
Doug

The Ross bolt would blow out if assembled improperly, that's what the rivet was for...as I understand it. Well, anyway, have fun.

Question 1: Can you mis-assemble the bolt so it doesn't lock? Yep.
Question 2: Can you then chamber a cartridge that way? Yep.
Question 3: Will the firing pin actually detonate a primer that way? Yep.
Question 4: What's the result? Well, here's a blank round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxH8M5IZ3TE

More to come, as I put together the whole video...

But...we knew that. At least the Canadians did.

Sure, but most folks don't. I posted the teaser video here just to follow up on my thread - the project is intended for general firearms enthusiasts; not Ross collectors.

Actually it's about number one thing you learn about the Ross. Don't strip the bolt or there's a chance you may put it together wrong. The second would be the possibility of the bolt blowing open, but most don't know the two are linked. By the way, I'm not a Ross collector, I prefer US military.

I think this could be useful for collectors and the general fraternity out there. Rosses have gotten a bad rap over the years because of this issue. There are some great threads on Rossrifle.com/forum on how to assemble a bolt correctly, but a video is a great idea. I tried it once, and found that while it is possible to put the incorrectly assembled bolt back in the rifle, it isn't easy. It just doesn't fit right. However, it was obviously enough of a potential issue that the military armourers put a rivet in all the bolts they could get their hands on; I'm thinking they wouldn't have spent their valuable time doing that if it wasn't a problem.

Ed

If I am reading TRRS correctly, the bolt riveting wasn't done by the military armourers until 1941 to 1944. The idea was patented by Robert H Mackay of New Glasgow, Nova Scotia in 1924. He had seen a soldier in a field hospital in England that was injured by a blown Ross bolt. Mackay attempted to to get a contract from the Canadian government to alter all Ross bolts, but was not successful. There is other evidence presented that private gunsmiths may have also pinned bolts e.g. pinned commercial sporting rifles were likely not pinned at a government facility. The primary difference between the Ross, M95 Steyr or similar straight-pull rifles and any other 'normal' bolt action rifles is only in the method of turning the bolt head in and out of battery. I think there is no more chance that pressure on the bolt face will open the Ross than on any Mauser type action. Hangfire? If I lift the bolt handle on any bolt action prematurely and a hangfire occurs, I will indeed suffer from bolt to face injury. TRRS postulates that a blown primer may act apon the bolt sleeve to open the action prematurely. I would think that pressures would have lowered enough by then for a pierced primer to have a limited effect. But maybe! And finally, if the Ross bolt is assembled correctly, and is only partially in battery, a pull on the trigger will close the bolt completly before the firing pin moves forward. As to the judiciousness of disassembly/assembly of the MkIII bolt; I shoot my MkIII often, and as used tools get dirty they need cleaning to operate correctly. The first time I dissassembled/reassembled the bolt was time consuming, but after many cleanings it has become second nature. "A clean weapon is a happy weapon" or so my Drill Sgt. in 1967 stated and of course they were never wrong. I am a huge fan of ForgottenWeapons videos. He illustrates many weapons that I would never get the opportunity to see otherwise. If anyone hasn't checked them out I think they should. Regards. Tom

The Ross Book has a chapter on M10 blowups written by an engineer, Dupris. You seem to be plowing old ground.

Interesting thread! By coincidence, just the other day, I stripped the bolt on my un-pinned MarkIII and learned how to assemble it incorrectly. First thing I learned was how to do it correctly for which the instructions in the old Canadian government manual (1913) are far and away the clearest. That manual doesn't even mention that 1/8 of a turn backwards when the "plain cylinder just enters the sleeve" allows the bolt to be incorrectly configured- but why should it? It's so obviously wrong that they must have figured no one tasked with stripping a bolt could conceivably be dumb enough to insert it in the rifle like that (time proved them wrong, I guess). But my question pertains to an unstripped bolt- has anyone been able to cause the bolt to enter the sleeve incorrectly without stripping? With mine, the extractor won't allow the bolt head to rotate far enough to enter the sleeve incorrectly. If it could that might explain how an infantryman might get into trouble just cleaning the assembly.

Ridolpho

It was never just cleaning, it was stripping and incorrectly assembling...that was the problem.

It takes a bit of force, but mine will snap around the wrong way after being assembled correctly. The extractor has enough spring to ride over the bolt head as I rotate it.

The old adage "you can make something foolproof, but not damn-foolproof" applies. It is possible to assemble the bolt incorrectly, and ForgottenWeapons is correct in that with a fair amount of force and determination, a bolt can be snapped around when assembled. However, it then takes some fiddling to get it to go into the rifle smoothly, etc. So, by forcing things they can be made to work incorrectly, but only but forcing things, and that should usually be the first clue to anyone that maybe something "ain't right".

Ed

I have never found a MkIII bolt that will slide smoothly into the rifle with the bolt incorrectly positioned.

What other modifications did you make to the bolt OP, to get it slide so smoothly?

Post a photo of the bolt head showing the end of the extractor slot please.

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

The Ross Book has a chapter on M10 blowups written by an engineer, Dupris. You seem to be plowing old ground.

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Like the majority of non-Ross experts, I have not got the book, but have got a PC. I knew about the nasty possibility, in an academic way. But the video makes the point unforgettably. As for ploughing old ground - aren't we doing that eternally on the forums anyway? Because we have forgotten, or because we don't know. AND for the enlightenment of those who ask for help.

So ForgottenWeapons, did you modify the bolt or bolt head to get it to slide freely in the misassembled position or not?

The only modification I made to my bolt was to grind out the safety rivet. Here's a photo of it assembled incorrectly:

Attachment 43522

In order to get the bolt smoothly into the rifle when mis-assembled, you just have to pull the bolt head forward slightly, so that the locking lugs sit horizontally. While this is a clear indicator of a problem to someone familiar with the Ross, to a green recruit, I think it could be overlooked as simply the bolt being a bit fiddly to put back into the rifle. After all, you do have to be a bit careful positioning the bolt head when doing it correctly, to avoid having it snap closed under spring tension before it's fully in the receiver. For someone who remembers that it take a bit of finesse but doesn't recall how or why, I think a misassembled bolt could be installed without being obvious that something is amiss.

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Originally Posted by ForgottenWeapons

The only modification I made to my bolt was to grind out the safety rivet. Here's a photo of it assembled incorrectly:

Attachment 43522

In order to get the bolt smoothly into the rifle when mis-assembled, you just have to pull the bolt head forward slightly, so that the locking lugs sit horizontally. While this is a clear indicator of a problem to someone familiar with the Ross, to a green recruit, I think it could be overlooked as simply the bolt being a bit fiddly to put back into the rifle. After all, you do have to be a bit careful positioning the bolt head when doing it correctly, to avoid having it snap closed under spring tension before it's fully in the receiver. For someone who remembers that it take a bit of finesse but doesn't recall how or why, I think a misassembled bolt could be installed without being obvious that something is amiss.

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Well, to get the bolt head into the position you show it in, it has to be taken apart and put together incorrectly, or the bolt head has to be pulled out and rotated with the extractor out of its slot, in which case it can with a bit of luck, bad luck or practice, be slid back into the position you show; if there is no 'safety rivet'.

You mention that the bolt head must be pulled forward slightly so that the locking lugs sit horizontally and this is my experience also. The problem is, they never sit horizontally on the Rosses I have examined, they sit at about the 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions, rather than the "9 & 3" that would allow the bolthead and bolt to slide into the action freely. At the "2 & 8" position, the bolt head binds on the left side rail as the force of the spring pulls the bolthead backward in a counterclockwise direction (seen from the firer's position so to speak) making it just about impossible to slide the bolt onto the guide rails, let alone into the breech.

In rifles with the extractor slot ending in a 'ramp', it is easy to rotate the bolt head into the wrong position, but in rifles like yours with the square-ended extractor slot, the extractor must be pried out of its slot to do this. The ramp-ended slot was a design defect, but I haven't seen it on a MkIII rifle, only on M1910 sporters.

So are you saying that your rifle bolthead sits in such a way when misassembled that it will slide freely in and out of the breech?

"One more unto the breech, dear friends?" :D

PS: is there an ETA on the video by the way?

Yeah, my bolt head does sit at 8&2 when misassembled. I found it fairly easy to hold it forward at 9&3 while getting it into the receiver grooves, and once you have it seated you can let go of the bolt head and it will slide pretty well. It's not quite as smooth as a correctly assembled bolt, but the difference is slight enough that you wouldn't notice unless you set up up both ways one right after the other.

I have all of the video done except for actually firing it out of battery - I'm working on coordinating with another blogger who has professional quality high speed cameras. If I can't get that set up in another week or two, I'll do it with my own consumer-grade high speed gear...so the video should be out by the end of the month.

FYI, my video is complete and posted at Forgotten Weapons this morning. I was expecting the bolt to actually come out of the gun, but it didn't. When the locking lugs hit the bolt stop, the rearmost lug sheared off and left the bolt still in the receiver (the bolt stop remained intact). Still, it would have done a real number to a shooter's face if they were firing it when that happened.

Public YouTube video posted for the ease of viewing in-line with this thread... ;)

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Myth and Reality of the Ross MkIII Rifle

Published by ForgottenWeapons (click here) on 16 Jun 2013

There is a long-standing urban legend about the Canadian Ross rifle, a straight-pull bolt action that was used in lieu of the SMLE by Canadian troops early in World War One. The story is that the Ross would sometimes malfunction and blow the bolt back into its shooter's face, with pretty horrible results. Well, I wanted to learn "the rest of the story" - could this actually happen? What caused it? How could it be prevented? In short, what would a Ross shooter need to know to remain safe? And if I could get some cool footage of a bolt blowing out of a Ross in the process, all the better.

Well, reader Andy very generously provided a sporterized Ross for the experiments, and I started reading into what the issue really was. Turns out that the legend was quite true - you can put a Ross MkIII bolt together the wrong way, and it will allow you to fire without the locking lugs engaged, thus throwing the bolt back out of the gun at high velocity. However, the issue was recognized fairly quickly, and the vast majority of Ross rifles were modified with a safety rivet to prevent this from happening. It is also quite easy to determine if a Ross is assembled correctly, once you know what to look for.

Myth and Reality of the Ross MkIII Rifle - YouTube

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ForgottenWeapons, that was a great video presentation. I found it easy to follow and fascinating.

The video was interesting. I notice you pulling the bolt head forward about 1/4" several times after you have got it into the unsafe position, and it snapping back into the "8 & 2" position when you let go of the bolt head. You finessed it onto the guide rails quite convincingly; you must be naturally deft and perhaps gave it some practice as well!? ;) Of course the pressure of the left hand locking lugs on the guide rail also depends on the strength of the firing pin spring, and some are quite weak after all these years.

I assume the deformation of the bolt lugs prevented you closing the action fully on your second and third attempted shots. You could have taken the needle files to the bolt threads and got them to close fully probably. Might have been interesting to see how many threads were needed to hold the bolt in.

As the rifle is now buggered up, you could have packed a case full of pistol powder and tried to blow it up. You wouldn't have, but it would have been interesting to see the high speed film of the attempt.

Definitely you've explained the bolt head positioning indicators well and that should help a lot of people who are not familiar with the Ross.

It's a pity you couldn't get hold of a copy of The Ross Rifle Story, as that provides a great deal of background info, both on blowback incidents and the experiments made by the authors of that book.

I get the feeling you came away from the exercise with a bit more regard for the Ross than you had before?

I didn't spend much time practicing installing an unsafe bolt; I simply didn't find it particularly difficult to do. I do have a lot of hands-on time taking apart all sorts of odd guns, so it might have come to me more quickly than other folks. Actually, I've been trying to get the bolt back into correct configuration since finishing the video, and haven't been able to yet. I'm wondering it I might have deformed one of the teeth in the bolt sleeve.

Further testing would have been interesting on its own (how many bolt lugs necessary to hold the action, behavior with a massively overcharged load, etc), but they are pretty well outside of the question I was trying to answer, which was what actually happened to soldiers in the field. As it stands now, there is no damage at all to the barrel, receiver, trigger, or really anything but the bolt head - so I'm keeping the gun around for possible conversion into a Huot replica some day.

I wouldn't say I had a low regard for the Ross before doing this; I just didn't have much experience with it at all. I was expecting a rifle more or less the same as its contemporaries, and found that I enjoyed shooting it much more than the other guns of that era that I've used. There is definitely a place for both a MkII and a MkIII in my collection when I find the right ones. Same for The Ross Rifle Story - I would really like to find a copy that I can afford to buy, and it will be an excellent addition to my library.

I figured that would happen! They are a neat critter aren't they?

Here's a comment that was strangely left out of Frank Iriam's "In the Trenches, 1914-1918", which by the way you would find interesting ForgottenWeapons, and a lot cheaper than The Ross Rifle Story. I don't know why it was left out as the book was supposed to be a verbatim copy of his account written in manuscript in the 1920s and 30s.

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Now we have been told by lots and lots of people who were not there, and did not happen to have lived through it that the Ross rifle was a failure as a military arm, and that 1st Division was handicapped by being armed with it , and lots of men lost their lives through its jamming in critical places etc. and so on. Even men who did live through that fight, [St. Julien] but happened to hail from Merrie England will tell you solemnly it [the Ross Rifle] was no good and never was. I cannot see it that way at all. If even a small fraction of the attention, time and money and labor of experts, had been put on the Ross, that has been spent on the Enfield and Springfield, we would now have a rifle that Canada might be proud of.

The 8th Durhams had short Lee Enfields and they got into the gassed area early enough to suffer a bit from rust and corrosion. Several of us tried to use Enfields in that defence, but you had to pry under the handle with the blade of a bayonet to turn the bolt each time and if you succeeded in turning the bolt up, it was then another task to drive it back and then ahead again and in most cases it could not be done for the bolt seized fast in its channel from corrosion and would not repeat even after being driven and forced a couple of times back and forward. Oil might have helped but there were no oil wells on our part of the front then. This record does not come from a base camp in England, neither does it hail from [the School of Musketry at] Hythe or [the N.R.A. ranges at] Bisley [Camp], nor yet from the lines of the motor transport back of [Mont] des Cats. Conan Doyle said St. Julien was the greatest (unsupported) infantry defense in military history, and he has an uncanny way of getting at the truth of things (the old Ross did it).

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PS: I assume you meant a "MkII" would be part of your collection?

How's this for an epilogue? I just won a batch of rifles at Rock Island Auction which includes a pretty nice looking MkIIIB (which is why I was bidding on the lot). It's in full military trim, and looks like it will be an excellent shooter for me. Gotta say, I wouldn't have given it a close look before the time I spent doing this video. :)

I still am keeping another open place in the rack for a MkII, though...