Allow me to rant for a bit....

Picked up another Berthier Mle M16 rifle today, dated 1917. As usual, some friends of mine had to chime in with the usual "never been fired, only dropped once?" banter. I would like to take this opportunity to inform any of our French friends on here that here is at least one American, and a Southern one at that, who fully realizes that that is complete BS... Verdun during the First World War comes immediately to mind, not to mention the innumerable casualties suffered in other parts of that disaster. Let's not forget, either, that when it really comes down to it, had it not been for the French, my country just MIGHT have had lost our war for independence from the Brits.
I don't want to drag on with this, but I'm sure that some of our French members, if they are here, must get tired of this ridiculous image some of my fellow Americans have of them. I just wanted to take this opportunity to tell them that there is at least one Yank here who recognizes the hardship and sacrifice that nation has endured for quite a long time.
Sorry to rant, but have just about had it with the 'never fired, dropped once' crowd.
Other than that, carry on and let's enjoy our common interests!

I find an embarassing number of otherwise intelligent people denigrate anything French. Although their engineering might look odd, it is perfectly serviceable. I have had a MAS 36/51, 44 and 49 rifles. Without a doubt these are unusual rifles - if your only frame of reference is American, British or German. People who only read books written by anglophiles will find nothing favourable with French designs. There are those who believe Paul Mauser peaked with the M98. Others can't imagine anything not stamped USGI. Their ignorance is pitiable.

For a reality check, which five countries are permanent members of the UN Security Council? France is one. Who is a nuclear power? France is one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anzac15

Verdun during the First World War comes immediately to mind

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One of the major battles of WW1, been through the town a few times, what you must remember is your fellow country men were there also, in the Foreign Legion.

Totally understand that. I just knew what the response was going to be when I pulled the Berthier out of the case. It just really gets old to me. I do enjoy the looks on their faces when I explain to them that the French were the first to field a rifle using smokeless powder.
Didn't really mean to rant, but I guess I heard that just one too many times!
Also, today, picked up my first MAS 49/56. Really looking forward to shooting this one!

---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

And BigDuke, very envious of your travels to Verdun! Touring the Western Front areas is no1 on my 'To Do' list!

Have been looking for a good Lebel or Berthier rifle for quite some time.
Plus another "donor" Lebel to rebuild the M1918 semi-auto rifle.

One very practical feature which was incorporated onto the French rifles is the sights. One of the few iron sighting systems that works well both in bright and dim light. In fact, to celebrate, it's time for the avater change...

Since this started out as a bit of an OT rant, let me keep it going.
I have no problem with the bravery of French soldiers...yada...yada...yada, but why exactly is France a permanent member of the UN Sec. Council???
After the surrender of France in 1940, Vichy France allied itself with Germany and Japan, and actively engaged our troops on a number of occasions. Did the Free French really contribute enough to victory to have a permanent seat among the victors? If anything, it should be seen as a wash.

Two very Different wars and years Jonnyc........ Anzac15 was just making a point of some of the remarks he got when presenting his new milsurp.

Anzac15, It was many years ago I went through the town, It was due to a drive down from Cumbria (UK) to the black forest in Germany to see my mate, instead of all the journey on A roads I tried to use the B ones when close to certain areas I knew battles were fought.

Agree with the OP comments. I used to make similar comments myself many years ago until I knew more about history. Speaking as a typical Canadian hybrid genetic mongrel of Irish, Scottish, English, and likely some German DNA, growing up in western Canada, I really didn't know much about French military history. My mother was a librarian and historian who was and still is a very staunch proud Canadian. She didn't have a lot of time for the Americans (not happy about the War of 1812), or the British monarchy, and she also didn't have a lot of respect for the French. She was a kid in the war years, so heard a lot of talk about France falling quickly, and the dastardly Vichy bastards, etc. She certainly made sure that we didn't fall for the Hollywood version of the world, which is that the US won WWI and WWII all by themselves, but what I learned about the wars was that the British and Canadian forces won them, with some help from the US, and the French really didn't merit a mention. That coloured my view growing up. That changed as I studied more history.

Under Napoleon, the French ruled most of Europe and were defeated ultimately by the Russians, Russian winter, the Royal Naval blockade and Wellington on the Peninsula. Something Hitler would have done well to have studied more..........

In the Franco-Prussian war, the Prussians won despite having an inferior infantry rifle primarily because of better organization and overwhelming use of effective Krupp artillery. I don't think anyone would say the French didn't fight bravely but one can only do so much with badly organized leadership.

In WWI, the French stopped the German advance at the Marne and fought bravely throughout the war, incurring horrible casualties. So did everyone else--British (Mons was remarkable, the Somme was a catastrophic slaughter for British and Canadian forces), Canadian, Anzac, American, Italian, German, Austrian, Russian, etc--all troops acquitted themselves well. Some had much better leadership and better equipment than others. Frankly, I admire anyone in that conflict who went "over the top" into near guaranteed death or dismemberment.

I think it was WWII which got the French the reputation as losers, but again the individual soldiers fought well. They were hampered by a government and leadership which was fractured by political infighting, had not acted quickly enough to rearm with better weapons, had not organized well, and had made some fatal assumptions about the actual "impassibility" of the Ardennes. After the defeat, the bad image was bolstered by the French who did cooperate with the Germans, but that will happen in any country which is taken over. The Resistance did a fine job through the war, but was hampered also by infighting between political factions. I personally think that de Gaulle was a borderline competent self-serving egotistical putz, but others might disagree.

Over the years, I've built up more or less by accident a nice collection of French arms--Napoleonic muskets, Chassepot, Gras, Lebel, Berthier, MAS 36, 36/51, MAS 44. I'm expecting delivery of my first 49/56 in a couple of weeks--I had to buy it in the US as I couldn't find one in Canada. The MAS 44 was very much ahead of its time, and while the MAS 36 and 36/51 are mocked for looking "funny" they are actually pretty ergonomic and highly functional. What more do you need from a service rifle? Cool guns, and not well appreciated, which is nice because French stuff is just about the only line of milsurps which one can get cheaply! I will say that finding reference books on Lee Enfields, Mausers and anything American is very easy, but there isn't a hell of a lot out there on French stuff, (at least in English), which doesn't help combat the ignorance. There is the out of print 4 volume set Armes a Feu Francaise, which really only covers to the early 20th century, and recently "Proud Promise" which is a great book on the autoloaders. I have not found an equivalent to Skennerton's Lee Enfield books or Ball's Mauser book for French rifles, which is a pity. There are sections in Small Arms of the World, Military Small Arms of the 20th Century, and Military Rifles, but they are not detailed. Really, you need to rely on other collectors or things like Wikipedia and forums like these for information.

Sorry for the rant. I am mostly a Ross and Enfield collector myself, but do have a soft spot for the French stuff.

Ed

Just to follow up on the French technological contributions:

- clip fed rifles. Who gave John Garand the idea? The French.
- gas impingement operating systems. Where did Eugene Stoner come up with the AR15 system? The MAS44, MAS49 and MAS49/56.
- mid length .30cal cartridges. Where did NATO get the idea for the 7.62x51? The French 7.5x54.
- universal grenade launchers. Why do most modern armies still issue hand grenades and ration the underbarrel grenade launchers?

Duke, Maple Leaf did bring the UN into the discussion.

These are rare and few are found in original WW1 configuration (even with the Winchester scope too). The Lebel can hold eight rounds in the magazine, one in the lifter and one in the chamber.Attachment 42249Attachment 42248Attachment 42247