Kleins "Oswald" Carcano Replica

Here is my replica of C2766, Lee Harvey Oswald's Carcano. Oswald allegedly purchased the WWII surplus Carcano from Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago in March, 1963, and, depending on whose history you believe, used it to assassinate JFK. The rifle is a M38 6.5 1940 Terni Carcano mounted with a 4x18 Ordnance Optics Inc. Scope made in Japan. The sling is a M13 USAF Air Crewman Holster Sling. Everything about my replica is the same as C2766, except the serial number, my rifle is a Q-block.

It took me a year to finish this project. I hope you all enjoy.Attachment 42456Attachment 42457

Klein's in Chicago sold alot of the surplus white twenty round boxes of 6,5mm Carcano.

Do not know if any of this ammo was found with Oswald's Carcano ?Attachment 42458

It is said that this is the ammo Oswald supposedly used. This ammo was bought by the US Army for the CIA in 1954, for the CIA operation to overthrow the Communist government of Albania. After the operation fell through the ammo was put in storage and was then used for training the Cuban Exiles of Assault Brigade 2506 for The Bay of Pigs Invasion in 1961. There is actually footage of the Cuban Exiles training with M38 Carcanos. After 1962, 2 million rounds of the Western Cartridge Company 6.5 Carcano ammo was released on the American surplus market, and that is when Oswald supposedly bought some.

And the question is, can you accurately fire it the required number of rounds at the same distance in the allotted time?

Having fired Carcano's, I have a hard time cycling the bolt.

With the replica that a friend built using the same components (minus the sling and WW ammo) accuracy has been in the 1 1/2 MOA range for six shot groups. Rapidly operated, not so good, but the time required is easily met on a stationary target. That said, action smoothness on Carcanos is a BIG variable. Some operate quite smoothly, others about have to be beat into submission. Mostly due to mismatches in the oddly designed primary exraction cam at the front of the bolt lugs.

Very nice work. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

And the question is, can you accurately fire it the required number of rounds at the same distance in the allotted time?

Having fired Carcano's, I have a hard time cycling the bolt.

---

I don't know, I haven't shot it yet but plan on shooting it soon.

I have a suspicion that the reason the bolts cycle badly is the well worn clips. Without any rounds in my rifles, both cycle just fine. Put rounds in them and it's a whole other story. I just fired my 7.35 a few weeks ago and half went fine, the other half hung. I think if the shell is loose and does not get in the bolt head just right, it won't chamber properly. I had one round that went in but the bolt wouldn't close. It dropped right out by turning the rifle up so that wasn't a problem but had I tried forcing a second round in thinking there wasn't one in there it could have become a big problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I think if the shell is loose and does not get in the bolt head just right, it won't chamber properly.

---

Have only had that sort of drama with the Norma brass. Prvi and Hornady have been fine.

I was using surplus brass so there shouldn't have been any problems. The shells were loose. I didn't do much experimenting with it, I was just getting rid of the shells more than anything else.

Here is the Klein's Ad from the February 1963 Issue of American Rifleman Oswald supposedly purchased the "6.5 Italian Carbine" for $19.95 with the Ordnance Optics Scope mounted on it, under the name A. Hidell on March 13, 1963.

Milt Klein lived in this house during the 40's (maybe even before) thru the mid 60's when he moved. The house has had some outside work but is much the same as when he lived at this address in Glencoe Illinois, about one hour north of Chicago on Lake Michigan. Photo is about five years old.
Klein felt bad about the Oswald mail order rifle and soon after got out of the retail and mail order but kept the Gun Digest awhile longerAttachment 42648

One thing with the scope mount that I've found is that the attaching screws are barely up to the task of holding zero. It would be much better with the addition of a couple of dowel pins, but the wouldn't be "correct"... On mine, (the one mentioned previously which a friend built) the mount has shifted a couple of times, requiring tightening of the screws and re-zeroing. But it does fine until it doesn't.

At some point I would like to make another Klein's Carcano Replica, but it would have to be a C-block short rifle.

built this sling for one of my Carcanos; what do you think?
Attachment 46345

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by menken

built this sling for one of my Carcanos; what do you think?
Attachment 46345

---

Looks OK! Have never tried to do one, but am curious if it makes any kind of practical sense.

Are you referring to building an 'Oswald clone' rifle; building a repro sling, or would the sling be of any use?

Doesn't matter much, 'cause the answer to all three of those is 'no'. THe gun is a silly money sink (like most hobbies), same with the sling. I have a stupid amount of time and energy invested in crafting them, and as for the sling being practical; its really too short to be good for much other than picking the rifle up by. There isn't enough slack, even with the buckles backed off as far as possible, to get your arm laced through it in any meaningful way that would provide any support.

But then there isn't any evidence that LHO was in Mensa, so (I'm guessing) he found that M13 holster strap in a "used/cheap stuff" barrel somewhere and thought it might work as a sling. Not so much.

If the scope mount would stay put using nothing but the screws, I'd call the optics package and rifle practical enough for hunting. Mine shoots very well indeed until the zero goes. A couple of dowel or taper pins would fix that easily enough, but it's not going to happen on my repro.

Interesting thread.

I bought my first Carcano the year before from Ed Page's Hardware in Hargrave, Manitoba (population today circa 50), got white-box ammo from Albion in Peterborough ($6 for 5 boxes; it also fit my VV 70/87/915), but there were no CLIPS in Canada. After the JFK thing, LIFE magazine published photos of LHO's sales slip, so I wrote to Klein's, sent along a dollar and asked for a clip.

Klein's sent me half a dozen UNMARKED blued clips. It was only some time later that I got actual Italian clips and made the discovery that they had manufacturers' markings on them!

I still have a couple of those "CIA clips" around somewhere. They worked very well.

What my Father said when he discovered a CARCANO in my closet may not be quoted here. He was okay with Lee-Enfields and Rosses and Winchesters and even Mannlichers, but a CARCANO was the LIMIT.

BTW, everyone wants to know if the 3 rounds could be fired in 6-1/2 seconds. I did it the following Spring with a Model 38 Carbine, offhand, at a cigarette pack at 75 yards, standing. Two hits and a miss, group size about as big as a Cantaloupe. It's not hard; you only have to reload twice. You start with a loaded chamber and leave the last round in the rifle, which is what Oswald did; according to the police report, his rifle had a fired round in the chamber ....IIRC.

For students of history,ballistics and or conspiracy theroists I read a book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_...hat_Killed_JFK a couple of years ago that makes an interesting argument that the fatal wound resulted from an accidental discharge of a Secret Service AR-15 and not Oswald's Carcano though it does not dispute Oswald was the shooter. Very interesting read.

I have a question for those that have fired their Oswald replica Carcano with the Ordnance Optics scope attached. How is the eye relief? I know most of the 3/4 inch scopes have a short eye relief and I've often wondered if one of these on the Carcano might poke your eye out with the recoil. THANKS! Salt flat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salt Flat

How is the eye relief?

---

No problem! I shoot the thing left handed as well. I wonder if the scope was actually used in the infamous event. One of those questions that'll never get answered, I suppose.

As an update to my previous post on the Oswald/JFK story Reels Channel will be broadcasting a documentary based on the book Mortal Error this evening at 9 or 10 Eastern Time.
I believe it is titled JFK the Smoking Gun. It contains evidence which has come to light sence the publication of the book. This is not an Oliver Stone production. For anyone interested in this subject I would highly recommend the book Mortal Error and the program. A very compelling argument is made that the story we have all been told about this sad day in history is incomplete at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smellie

Interesting thread.

I bought my first Carcano the year before from Ed Page's Hardware in Hargrave, Manitoba (population today circa 50), got white-box ammo from Albion in Peterborough ($6 for 5 boxes; it also fit my VV 70/87/915), but there were no CLIPS in Canada. After the JFK thing, LIFE magazine published photos of LHO's sales slip, so I wrote to Klein's, sent along a dollar and asked for a clip.

Klein's sent me half a dozen UNMARKED blued clips. It was only some time later that I got actual Italian clips and made the discovery that they had manufacturers' markings on them!

I still have a couple of those "CIA clips" around somewhere. They worked very well.

What my Father said when he discovered a CARCANO in my closet may not be quoted here. He was okay with Lee-Enfields and Rosses and Winchesters and even Mannlichers, but a CARCANO was the LIMIT.

BTW, everyone wants to know if the 3 rounds could be fired in 6-1/2 seconds. I did it the following Spring with a Model 38 Carbine, offhand, at a cigarette pack at 75 yards, standing. Two hits and a miss, group size about as big as a Cantaloupe. It's not hard; you only have to reload twice. You start with a loaded chamber and leave the last round in the rifle, which is what Oswald did; according to the police report, his rifle had a fired round in the chamber ....IIRC.

---

So are you left handed like LHO? Shooting from the left shoulder makes the scope mount a bit more practical, it would be similar to shooting a K31 that has a right side mount, right handed. With the K31 the normal cheek weld becomes a chin weld. If he had the rifle rested it'd be pretty quick shooting using his right hand to work the bolt.

I am seeking info on the Ordnance Optics Inc. 4 x 18 scope that was mounted on Oswald's M91/38 Carcano, and this thread seemed the likeliest place to find people able to answer my questions. I know this thread is old but, are any of the members that posted in this thread still active on this forum?

>>action smoothness on Carcanos is a BIG variable.<<

Very true. Some of this comes from the roughness of the machining of the ejector slot.

The Italians were a bit too cute designing the trigger and ejector to use the same spring. As a result the spring force on the ejector is kind of high. With a rough bottom ejector slot you can get a very heavy and uneven force required to operate the bolt.

If your bolt set up works smoothly there hardly an action that is smoother or more positive feeding than a Carcano.

Is the original Oswald Carcano rifle on public display in the States now or is still too much of a sensitive subject to show it in a museum?

In a doco I saw about the event LHO fired 3 rounds 1st missed over the top as they found the scarf in the bitumen and heres where it gets interesting I gather as LHO was tracking the Limo with JFK in it he fired 2 more rounds which one of them connected fact is they suspect the 3rd round went through a street lamp shade. Do not ask how they came to that conclusion they examine pics and forensically analysed them and it showed a bullet hole in the shade in line with LHO's firing position. Doco was called I think "The missing bullet" do not quote me on that interesting doco but it also covered the CIA AD which they believe killed the president.

In JFK's post mortem the injuries to his cranial cavity and brain were devastating like those inflicted by a high velocity projectile which began to fragment instantaneously leaving a large hole and voiding brain matter out the side of the presidents skull they xrayed the head and found I think either 15-20 bullet fragments inside the brain and skull area. This points to the AR rifle and not the Carcano that LHO was using with Ball round solids.
To me from what I have learned over my life the USA lost a great president along the lines of Lincoln and Jefferson and of course Roosevelt sadly the family was not fated to have a great life with another's assassination and the car in the river episode.

Most of the evidence is on line for you to look at.
There was no shot through a street lamp.
One bullet went through Kennedy and Connolly.
One bullet hit Kennedy in the head and partially broke up with pieces hitting the inside of the windshield. There was a small crack in the windshield and there were bullet fragments inside the car. This was the bullet that did all the damage to JFK's skull.
Another bullet or fragments hit a curb near the overpass and a fragment of bullet or concrete hit a bystander on the cheek.

Many people have passed on word of mouth accounts and believe them with no evidence to back them up. I have heard a hundred guys claim different things when the physical proof is well known, well documented and is available on the net. Many have their minds made up and are just too lazy to look.
You can look for the testimony of Larry Sturdivan a PHD physicist who was an expert in wounding.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

In a doco I saw about the event LHO fired 3 rounds 1st missed over the top as they found the scarf in the bitumen and heres where it gets interesting I gather as LHO was tracking the Limo with JFK in it he fired 2 more rounds which one of them connected fact is they suspect the 3rd round went through a street lamp shade. Do not ask how they came to that conclusion they examine pics and forensically analysed them and it showed a bullet hole in the shade in line with LHO's firing position. Doco was called I think "The missing bullet" do not quote me on that interesting doco but it also covered the CIA AD which they believe killed the president.

In JFK's post mortem the injuries to his cranial cavity and brain were devastating like those inflicted by a high velocity projectile which began to fragment instantaneously leaving a large hole and voiding brain matter out the side of the presidents skull they xrayed the head and found I think either 15-20 bullet fragments inside the brain and skull area. This points to the AR rifle and not the Carcano that LHO was using with Ball round solids.
To me from what I have learned over my life the USA lost a great president along the lines of Lincoln and Jefferson and of course Roosevelt sadly the family was not fated to have a great life with another's assassination and the car in the river episode.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

Doco was called I think "The missing bullet"

---

There's been several but I believe the one you're referring to was called ''the magic bullet'' and IIRC it was filmed in Australia.

Single-bullet theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia some light reading for you, guess it will be a Norma Gene thing who shot who.
And was there a shooter on the knoll who will know my main point was the world lost a great leader and WWII hero as per usual at the hands of a yet to be Conclusively proven assassin.
One thing we do know and that is on film is Jack Ruby shot LHO and you cannot disprove that one its all captured on film both men.........

Found the stuff on the lost bullet ~ JFK Files: Mr. Hollands "The Lost Bullet"

Sorry it was a traffic signal not a lamp shade I was running from memory on this article that I read years ago.

I have several Carcanos, but the one I like is the little carbine 6.5mm. I had to put a scope on it as the iron sights were calibrated for something like a 300 meter zero. I remember when I first tried shooting it, I couldn't figure out where the bullets were going. it turned out the bullets were all going high over the target. The 6.5mm round has a fair amount of bullet drop to it.

So anyway, LHO had to use the scope. I was at the Museum in Dallas a few years back and from where he was shooting from to where JFK was riding at, the iron sights would have been off by quite a bit. I still think luck had a lot to do with it though. Unfortunately, LHO was just plain lucky to pull it off.

THANKS FOR THE GREAT PICTURES OF YOUR "LEE HARVEY OSWALD RIFLE!!!" :D

I am also trying to build a JFK rifle. I have a 1940 Terni with a serial number less than a thousand numbers from Oswald"s Carcano! I have a Savage 340 scope mount on the way that was found in a parts bin at SARCO. I paid $20 for it! :-) It does not have the famous "X" in the metal. Does anyone know where I can get this vintage mount? I also have a "TASCO 4X COATED" scope that looks exactly like Oswald's! I just need the correct scope mount. Is there a Reproduction somewhere? I would even pay a good finder's fee to someone you came up with a mount???:dancingbanana::dancingbanana::dancingbana na:

Sincerely,

Doolittle

You guys have renewed my interest in my Carcano Carbine! Mine is the same model and has a similar serial to the famous one. It has a sheet metal mount and a similar (Bushnell, I think) scope, unfortunately not an Ordnance Optics.

Lots of opinions on the assasination, so I'll throw mine in the ring. I've researched this since college - about 40 years, I guess.

I just watched a DVD last week (new to me) from WalMart's discount bin, by a long term JFK assassination researcher - and it is basically several hours of in person interviews with ALL of the Parkland Hospital attending Doctors and Nurses, who actually saw JFK's wounds before the body (and documentation) was altered at Bethesda.

I cannot say that Oswald's rifle was not fired that day - but he did NOT make the fatal head shot. Oswald was an Office of Naval Intelligence Agent planted on the Russian's to spread disinformation - the Marines sent him (this "disloyal Marine") to both RUSSIAN school and Radar school - to create the bait (the term is "sheepdipped") so the Russians would find him a valuable enough "defector" to let him into Russia. His cover story from that role made him a great, as he said, "Patsy" on November 22, 1963.

The Secret Service AR-15 story is just another "smoke screen" book generated to keep the public and future investigators from discovering the truth - dig too many rabbit holes to trace, create unending controversy leading nowhere, deliberately..... No way (and no reason) the Secret Service could get everyone present on their payroll to instantly snap to a lie about a gun accident - that killed a President.

The local Dallas, Texas Emergency Room attending doctors who actually examined JFK's body and attempted to revive the President without any Federal interference and tampering gave the best testimony (along with videos and eye witnesses from the scene that day) that, from the wounds observed, proves the Grassy Knoll was the source of the brain shot.

All of the doctors and nurses at Parkland were emphatic that the killing shot entered the right temple and exited the back, blowing out the back of the head and lots of brain and scalp. This is proven by Jackie climbing onto the decklid of the Lincoln, retrieving part of her husband's skull/brain. Gunshot wounds make small holes at entry, and hydrostatic pressure blows the tissue at the back out. All hunters know this. One frame of the Zapruder film shows this "volcanic cone" as the back of Kennedy's head starts to come apart.

Oswald was found downstairs in the break room at the Texas Schoolbook Depository, drinking a Coke, within seconds of the shot. Not enough time to shoot, hide the rifle carefully, run down four flights of stairs (which two people were already on and never saw him). Oswald was NOT the shooter. Also, Oswald knew Jack Ruby and had been seen in his nightclub, with Ruby at a table. Ruby silenced Oswald before he could clear himself - or reveal more about Ruby and the other players.

All of this is, by now, known, available information - that was glossed over at the time by the Warren Commission to avoid the very idea of a Conspiracy from taking hold - which two shooters would prove. If it was believed to be a conspiracy, it would have to be solved or the public would not stand for it - and that would indict people very high in government. Like LBJ - who was probably involved.
Regardless, they are interesting rifles. I've never fired mine - looks like it is time to do some testing of my own. CC

PS - if I think of it, I will get the name of the DVD with the Parkland Doctor's testimony. CC

HEY sonofcoldwarkid96 !

WHERE DID YOU FIND YOUR SCOPE MOUNT??? I have a Terni Carcano Rifle that is ready for my scope mount! It will be a perfect replica JFK Rifle, all I need is the scope mount???
Please contact me!

Sincerely,

Doug
us13doolittle

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

Where did you find your sheet metal mount??? I am in the same situation, with a Terni Carcano ready for my scope!!! My scope is a Tasco that looks EXACTLY like Oswald's scope!

Sincerely,

Doug
US13 DOOLITTLE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by us13doolittle

WHERE DID YOU FIND YOUR SCOPE MOUNT

---

You could place a WTB here and probably find one...

Where did you obtain the scope mount? I have the scope and a damaged mount........the front has had a small area cut out from the Japan stamping to the bottom and has taken out the front mount hole.

Jason, That sounds like the proper mount as modified by Kleins. A picture could confirm this. Salt Flat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salt Flat

Jason, That sounds like the proper mount as modified by Kleins. A picture could confirm this. Salt Flat

---

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/27256...0/s-l140/p.jpg

In this image it is upside down. The scope came with it. I bought the proper scope elsewhere. See where there is a notch cut from the front?

Jason , You are right. That mount has been incorrectly modified. Take a look at the OP's photos on the first page. There is a perfect picture of the left side. Salt Flat

Jason, I would recommend starting a new thread and ask if someone will provide the dimensions or sketch of the proper profile for the mount. You could then have the mount reworked to be correctly shaped. A good metal smith could weld a small piece on where metal is missing and radius the rear edge to make it look right. The mounts seem to be very rare so it makes sense to save it. Salt Flat

Hello all, I have an original “Klein’s model” rifle that has all the hallmarks of a Riva- reconditioned gun complete with the black-ish finish stock., the “MADE ITALY” marking and is a C-block 1940 Terni
I contacted the supplier of ordnance optics scopes after reading that they had NOS scopes and mounts for sale. I’m paid a premium for the setup but i believe it is as close as you can get without going into the national archives.......pics to follow soon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chicky77

pics to follow soon

---

Why not start a new thread as this one is three years old since last post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Why not start a new thread as this one is three years old since last post.

---

Good idea! Gotta figure out how to post my pics first :)