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I'm looking at purchasing this gun, but I'm not too convinced of it's authenticity. It apparently was a RVN issue, and Winchester has confirmed this by phone to the vendor. When I put questions to him, he's hostile. These things alone tell me much. I think the butt is Savage 620 and the gun was NEVER military...the handguard? Well... Further I think without military marks, it was never military. Winchester "Says" the gun went to RVN by the serial alone...$1200 CDN...
Well , the lowest / highest reported examples are 1961838 to 1964087 . This is outside that range , but not by much. It also has the pre-1941 heatshield , which would be cause to raise eyebrows. It could have been replaced in 'Nam , so not a definate cause for rejection. The best bet would to be to get a factory letter from Winchester stating it was shipped as a trench gun to a US departure point. This statement from him about what Winchester said also raises a couple of points . Winchester would ship to a US military address , were they sent it from there would not be Winchester's concern and Winchester would have no record of that. Secondly , they charge $$$ for thier letters and don't give out free information over the phone. This gives the gun four strikes against it. The military model 12s from this era had no identifing markings , so is very easy to fake . Without a factory letter , it's only worth the sum of it's parts .
MHO , Chris
Thanks Chris, that's mostly what I though. I thought they all had military marks though. The phone call to Winchester was laughable. His acrimony was a flag also.
It looks like the serial number font on the barrel does not match the font on the receiver. I'd pass
Agreed, I thought that looks like a force match. Thanks Bob.
The serial numbers look right to me. Barrel extensions weren't numbered until they'd been fitted to the barrel and receiver and they were hand stamped. Not unusual for the two numbers to differ in looks slightly. Most but not all Winchester rifles and shotguns will have a manufacture date and sometimes a s/n stamped on the bottom of the chamber but it won't always be the same as the receiver date. I have a Model 12 20ga that has a barrel date of 1912 and a barred out s/n along with another that matches the receiver and extension. The receiver dates to 1958. I know for a fact it came this way from Winchester because it belonged to my great uncle and he special ordered it in 1958.
Thanks but I won't be able to check this part out. I doubt he will co-operate considering the blast he emitted when I first questioned him. I doubt this gun is more than an assembly of parts in close formation, in Canada almost ALL trench guns are suspect. Good ones even look good. They just aren't available here...that's why they get doctored up. It's about what I suspected from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I still say forced match. I only have a handful of Winchester shotguns, but the font on the barrel and receiver is the same. You can clearly see a difference here especially with the number "8".
The very idea that the front could have been force matched to me is reinforced by looking closely at the original photos and seeing angular marks like a file or machine paper on a file would leave. Also pitting on the receiver and not next to it on the tube. Then strike and "Magic"...it matches. Refinish and "No one's" the wiser...I think it's the least of the troubles with this one. The phone call to someone at the Winchester factory was the best part...and they confirmed it being at war...
Was he EVER acrimonious with me for questioning him...
I also think the CYL marking is a hand stamp...doesn't look right. He's still got it for sale, probably wonders what's wrong with us...
It never ceases to amaze me how someone trying to sell somthing can treat a potential customer with discourtesy. We have a couple of firearms dealers here that are complete jackwagons to customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
My assumption is if someone is unwilling to display common courtesy they are probably not reputable.
Yes, stock is from a Stevens Model 620A Trench Gun - modified to fit M12 receiver, and M12 buttplate also modified to fit.
Canfield's "Complete Guide to U.S. Military Combat Shotguns", page 161-162, addresses "Late Production Winchester Model 12 Trench Guns".
As was mentioned one of the above Threads, the serial number of this suspect M12 is only slightly outside/above the known recorded range of late production Model 12's (1961838 - 1964087).
Canfield also advises that the Field/Duck-gun forend would have been appropriate for a late production trench gun, and that these M12's also lacked the "U.S.", "Flaming Bomb" or other military markings normally found on USA military shotguns of that time.
As a courtesy, I emailed the guy back in April to advise him of the 620A stock and other things so he could have an accurate listing - but never did hear back from him.
Definitely not a $1,200.00 shotgun.
As I said, I did hear back and he was acrimonious...but it's still there, slowly creeping down in price. Most self righteous. Phone call to Winchester indeed... I'll be interested to see how low it goes before "Disappearing".
I don't think this would be an armourer repair. If they had a gun come in with a broken stock and didn't have one, just wait. Another will be along shortly with a front damaged and they'd strip them for parts...one works, one's a parts donor.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrpdw