My neighbour brought over this rifle he asked if some one could tell him what he had. Not even sure what kind of round it takes I'll post pic as soon as possible
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My neighbour brought over this rifle he asked if some one could tell him what he had. Not even sure what kind of round it takes I'll post pic as soon as possible
[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 43152[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
baz, Pretty nice Turkish GEW 1888. The crescent mark on the receiver ring indicates Turkish military. The turks made several changes to the original 88's including modifying the magazine so that rounds could be individual loaded. A picture of the back half of the receiver would help determine which version you have. The "S" indicates that it is chambered for standard 8x57 Mauser. Check to see that the bolt head is in place on the bolt. Also does the bolt number match the receiver? These are not the strongest actions so read up on the subject before firing and proceed with caution. Salt Flat
Ah, a rifle of endless debate.... and collecting variations.
I have a number of these rifles also S marked, and was told to NEVER fire milsurp ammo in them. The S was the culmination of improved steel and barrel design... but NOT necessarily bore diameter. Remember that the Turks did some gunsmithing on the their own, to these rifles.
I was always told to "slug" the barrel of these rifles, to insure you know what the true diameter is..
Many people that I had met, would cast or get bullets that were diameter and powder charge reduced... to fire in these grand ole rifles. But many people claimed to fire full power loads in them all day. Wishing to have all limbs intact, I have always taken the road of caution when shooting rifles over 100years old...
If you didn't know, check the barrel bands... you noticed the XX out markings. These are the previous "German" units that the rifle had served in. Each time it was removed from a unit, the old marking was stamped out. Some expert around here will tell you what units its served in. There should be 2 digits on the band, which match the receiver's last 2 digits. If a complete rifle ran out of barrel bands to stamp... sometimes units would start stamping the buttplate.
As to worth, it depends on the bolt also. I used to get these without bolts for like $40.00 in extremely rough shape. They were even cheaper when first imported (without bolts) from South America. I have seen some examples at gunshows go from $275 to $500+ in great condition. These good condition examples are typically of an earlier import. The last mass import I believe was from a South American Country where they were stored on a dirt floor. Turkish modified riles seem to bring somewhat less than one in pure "German" configuration, at least in my area.
Technical folks claim that this really isn't a Mauser. And it is referred to as a Commission Rifle, often. The barrel shroud is novel, but makes field maintenance a problem. Most that I have seen, had really bad shrouds, but somehow the barrel outsides look good. Shroud removal is easy, if you have the tools. Otherwise don't mess with it. It would be a tragedy to crush a shroud in a vise....
As to the bore diameter? The story is that the early Gew88's had a smaller bore than "modern" 8mm's... along with a lower pressure.
Snap more photos! You seem to have a nice example there!!
I will post more pics as soon as possible thank you for the info so far.
Attachment 43159[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 43158[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
You have a Gew88/05, the Germans converted many of their Gew88 to use Mauser style stripper clips rather than the en-bloc charger used in the Commision Rifle's Mannlicher style action, this is one of them. The work began in 1905, hence the "05" addition to the rifle's terminology. Once war production of the Gew98 caught up with demand, the Germans started donating the updated design Gew 88/05 to their Turkish allies who were in desperate straights for weapons, this started in about late 1915, early 1916.
The rifle was designed by a Military Commision - hence the terminology "Commision Rifle". It has a bolt of modified Mauser type and an action and magazine taken from Mannlicher as well as a barrel shroud designed by Milch. As you can see, it is less a Mauser design than a Mannlicher and it's adoption by the German military offended Mauser to no end and inspired his work on the advanced 1889 design used by Belgium and others and finally led to the 98 action used by nations all over the world.
These guns got a bad rap because of earlier rifles with a thinner-walled chamber area combined with the newer S patronen for which the leade and rifling were not really designed. S converted rifles, typically, are plenty safe (slug the bore to be sure - some rifles were rebarrelled using Czech barrels in south amierica for the .318" version of the 8x57J round. The '88 served with distinction throughout WW1, Germany ended the war with many of these still in the field, long after Gew98 produciton had caught up with demand.
Guys need to re-read Claven2's post. The South American import (Equador) rifles will have Czech barrels on them. CircleZ stamping is the clue. They are 1888 tubes in all regards. Bore is .318 NOT .323 and necks are made for that .318 bullet. I'll guess that were used with standard 8mm ammunition. They managed to hold together, but are commonly found in NRA "beat" condition. By the way, the import included many boltless rifles and many bolts lacking the bolthead. Old rifles, but fun rifles.
My S chamber Steyr 88/05 seems to really like 154gn FMJ surplus, which was the standard WW1 era 8x57 S patronen (0.323"). All these guns were originally made for Patronen 1888, which was a round nosed 225gn bullet. When the Germans converted the guns to the 88/05 configuration, the addition of the stripper clip guides caused them to machine a notch into the front of the receiver so the older, longer M88 rounds could still be used despite loading a bit further forward then when using en-blocks. The notch was NOT, as is popularly reported, for the 1905 S patronen, which is actually a shorter round than the M88. The S mark also denoted that an S patronen reamer had been used in the chamber to ensure the 1905 round would work ok. On most rifles this would not have even cut metal, it was a safety precaution to ensure the neck diameter was sufficient.
The Germans shot M88 and M1905 ammo in these guns interchangeably when they had them in service, with the S round preferred for guns so converted because the rear sight leaf had been re-regulated accordingly. At short range, it didn't really change performance switching to M88 ammo, which the Germans were keen to use up as conversion of rifles to S pattern progressed.
Most GERMAN barelled 88's will have a bore diameter between .321 and .323, totally safe to fire the .323 military ammo OF THAT DAY.
Where it get dicey is that in 1934, the 8x57JS was beefed up considerably to a 198gn boat tailed spitzer with a heavier recoil impulse for use in the K98k and machine guns. I would NOT fire the M34 loading of 8x57JS in my Gew88, and neither did turkey who stuck with the M1905 version of the 8x57.
As stated before, SLUG YOUR BARREL before shooting standard 154gn 8x57 in your Gew88 rifle. Chances are you have the .323" bore, but you want to make sure - trust me.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN3501-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN3507-1.jpg
PS: Paul Scarlatta wrote a great book on the Gew88 I can wholeheartedly recommend. One thing I will say though, is take his section on Gew88 bore dimensions with a grain of salt. According to him, .321-.323" barrels were not installed until 1896 and earlier barrels were sometimes re-bored to this dimension from .318" and marked with a "Z".
In my experience, this is generally false. I have slugged a good many 88 bores that were NOT Z marked and were pre-1896 (my above 1890 Steyr is an example). I have yet to see a gun with a .318" bore with a German-made barrel on it. The only .318's I've seen had Ecuadorian-installed Czech inter-war barrels on them.
YMMV.
Absolutely correct, Claven2, thank you for stating it clearly and correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
The ones you do have to watch out for are those imported from Ecuador by Gibbs in the relatively recent past; many, but not all, have Czech-made barrels with small bores and are not safe with even WW1 standard "S" ammunition, even though many will have the German applied "S" stamp on the receiver. As suggested above, slug your bore to be sure.
"even though many will have the German applied stamp", very good point. Good facts here. That stamp was applied circa 1904(??) and these Ecuadorian rifles were re-barreled in a huge project post-WWI. I can guess 1925-29 timeframe. So the stamp and reality are at odds as these are not true "S" rifles. The Czech barrels were held to the 1888 specs and are very tight .318 bores. You will find these barrels in near mint condition and the reasonable impulse is to shoot them. Look for a Circle Z stamp on the barrel, not on the jacket, but on the barrel. Be alert. Good luck to all.
If you just want to do a quick check, and either have a calibrated tool or a known 0.323" bored Mauser handy, then you could try this method:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff047-1.jpg
1888 with "S" marked receiver ring.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff050-2.jpg
Not super scientific if you want to split thousandths, but...
Bear in mind that a vernier calliper thusly used will under-report bore diameter by about 3 thou due to the bore inner curvature and the width of the calliper flats. If the shown bore were slugged, I'd bet the slug would measure out at .321".
Great information , gentlemen. Out of curiosity, are the Ecuadorian rifles clearly marked with large crests, etc. My own 88/05 is a former Turk with replacement Czech bolt and in very good
condition. Best deal I've had in a while- $275.00.
Ridolpho
Rido,
The answer is NO.. they are not clearly marked as such (with Crests). Generally they are not modified in an 1888/ 05 or 1888/15 type of configuration. If you pull off the shroud, then you will see the Z. If I get a chance and can dig up one of my barreled receivers, I will post a photo of the barrel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
Hmmm, these are the only calipers with which I do small IDs (at home), but usually they've been very close. The ID jaws are very narrow on this set. Will investigate further.
Did a quick test with a calibrated digital caliper set against a 0.3127" ring gage. The calipers read 0.310(5)", so in this case about 0.002" small. Now I'm curious: wondering if small hole gages could be used, perhaps with some narrowing. Also, at what point the error for the ID jaws becomes negligible i.e. 0.0005" or less. Too lazy (and busy) to do the math right now...
:rolleyes:But I did give myself an out in the other post by noting that a comparative check against a known 0.323" bore could be done. It's only the variance that matters.
I knew what you meant, was just ensuring ppl don't wrongly assume a direct .318 vernier measurement of bore equates to a .318 bore. You have to slug to get a precise reading.
Beautiful rifles. Love the pics you gentlemen posted. I have seen some with rust under the barrel shroud. Something to consider when purchasing an 1888 Commission rifle.
They do have a certain appeal, but have never been able to quite decide why. They've always been more attention getting than Gew 98s in these parts, even if they don't have near the same level of respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Mil Coll
At bit late, but here's the photo done during the caliper test a few posts back (Post #19):
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e43fb935-1.jpg
Firstly I would like to apologize for my lack of a response so far, crazy week. All the post have been very helpful. My neighbor's rifle is actually a very nice turkish gew88/05 it seems to take a 8x57 mauser round but is going to get it checked to be sure. I have more pics if amy body wants to see them I will post them.
Really wanted to thank everyone for the information you all shared with us.
Because I just don't know when to let go, here's another brand of calipers that were recently aquired, partially due to the "small hole error" potential. It seems Starrett has a better handle on the situation than Fowler. Only a few "tenths" off, which I reckon is irrelevant for this sort of tool.:
Yeah, Starett and Mittutoyo both make much better kit than Fowler/NSK for this sort of thing ;) The best solution is a lead slug you can measure on the outer diameter. Takes the guess work out of it.
The lead slug is the only way to get an accurate bore measurement. You can not measure a bore directly with calipers and expect accurate results - end of story.
I have been putting together my Gew88. South American import with a near mint Czech barrel. I can barely get a Turk 8mm cartridge into the chamber. The .323 bullet is slightly oversize. I found .318 bullets at Midway and have loaded up 10 rounds. They fit very tightly in the chamber and now I am at a loss. I may have to find a 8mm chamber reamer and try to get the neck to .323 size. These Gew88's are a lot of fun, to say the least.
Steve: Honestly, I would pick up a turk beater and have your smith swap the barrel back to a German one. Problem solved.
Those CZ barrels were made for a specific ecuadorian loading of the 8x57 that is not worth monkeying about with. Gunbroker has lots of turks with nice tubes but other issues that would make them a great donor to restore and early pattern rifle like yours.
Gents,
As to the barrels and shooting them? I was looking at getting barrels made (small ring mauser pattern I believe) but the cost is high... in relation to the $40.00 on average that I paid for them.
I was also looking at Chinese barrels for their version of the Gew88. But couldn't get any solid information... except, "your gonna die"... type comments. I think Numrich was listing the Barrels for these Gew's a few years ago.
And people do spend money on these fine old rifles... as evidenced by the Folks who were making bolt heads for them...
Eventually I might post my shroud making operation (not sure where to put it), but don't want to jump this thread toooo far! ;)
There is a market for bolt heads. Finding mint Gew88 barrels is a real effort. Really nice barrels are about but they frequently are Czech barrels. I will try to rent a 8mm reamer and go from there. Shooting .318 bullets isn't a problem. One of my buddies shoots his Gew88 all of the time. it shoots far to the left and seems to be that way. They are fun.
I shoot mine, but then, I have the original Steyr barrel on it with the S modification. I replicate the 1905 load exclusively. I have ONE collectible round of M88 and no, I won't be shooting it! lol.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff048-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff050-1.jpg
These won't be shot, either. Just about the nicest pasteboard ammo boxes ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
Nice snag, and NOT easy to come by!