4T fake mounts

hi,

in my last thread " is it a real mk3 scope" it was talked about fake mounts made in India or China.
Could we make a review with pictures of all those fakes?
It could be helpfull for all of us to know what are differences between fakes and real Mc Coy.

I have 2 4T real Mc Coy at home.
Not really rifles collector but british handguns collector.
I would like to get more infos about that fakes.
I believe fakes are getting better days after days.
Good business to make...
But not for buyers
K31/43

Sadly, there is a down-side to widely publishing information about all of the tiny details of each variation: The people making the fakes read the same websites and books as the true collectors.

If you have the Ian Skennerton books you will have most of what you need to know.

The other thing is that all of the "sniper" stuff was set up as individual units. You can't just swap a scope and bracket/rings around several rifles and expect it to be zeroed on any but the original.

Good luck!

The only real way to tell with the best fakes is the metallurgy. And the next goes hand in glove with that because it's the way malleable cast iron looks when it's .........., cast! To be honest, it just looks rough! There were two sorts of malleable cast too. Whiteheart and blackheart (blackheart is a mix of old/scrap, whiteheart, new mix) that differ under a good spyglass or microscope in a lab. But then, you have to know that some of the modern 'copies' were purchased prior to the withdrawal of the last L42's for strategic reasons. Are thay 'fakes' knowing that at least 50 or so L42's were disposed of with these brackets...........?

Difficult question there K31

Fakes that would be indistinguishable from the real thing would likely cost as much or more than originals unless done in large quantities. Having said that, it's surprising to me that the reproductions haven't been better, given that there's plenty of originals to use for pattern work and such. The tough part is that the pads weren't finish machined until after installation...At least the British pads...Having some odd manufacturing ideas about the Canadian...Hmmm.

As a long established 'faker' may I insert my two penn'orth here? We seem to be mixing up the word 'fake' with 'reproduction'. As many of you know I have been getting what are generally considered to be decent quality copies of the No32 bracket made since 1989/90 & whilst they are quite close copies of original Dalgleish brackets they are distinguishable, & moreover I have always sold them as faithful reproductions. I do not need to 'fake them up' or try to pass them off as originals as I have always been able to sell them faster than I have been able to get them made, even sold as copies as they are! I am currently awaiting the next batch & already have a waiting list.

The word 'fake' is rather emotive, & to me, in this context, is best applied to a copy No32 bracket that someone is attempting to pass off as an original - something I do not do. In more recent years a number of other copy brackets have appeared on the market - made in the Far East, India, & Eastern Europe. To the best of my knowledge the original marketers of these brackets have never attempted to pass them off as the real thing; the problem arises when they have changed hands a few times & somebody decides to get creative! Fortunately most attempts are pretty crude, & if one has access to the relevant books, such as Peter's & Ian Skennerton's then the outlay on these will stop the tyro from making an expensive mistake (as well as being a good read). Whilst at a fair in Belgium last year I was offered a pile of 'original Canadian No32 mounts' by one enterprising dealer. In fact they were simply the cheap Far Eastern copies with spurious Long Branch serial numbers engraved upon them..........but there you go; there will always be a temptation to some!

But please, let's not tar everyone selling honest reproductions to shooters who want to restore their 4T as 'fakers'..........

ATB

I agree wholeheartedly with Roger. I have no problem with reproductions. I have many reproduction items to enhance the firearms in my collection including a "Roger Payne Special" on my No.4(T) and very good it is too.

As regular readers will know, I have real down on the fakers. That is to say those sellers who sell items with spurious marks that can only be there to deceive. Last year, I had a disagreement with a guy on a famous auction site who claimed that his leather items with FAKE markings were not fakes. His only answer to my question as to why he did so if he was not producing items designed to deceive was that say that we would never agree. He was and is correct!

I have a reproduction numrich scope tin which cost a fraction of the real thing - and keeps my real scope nice and safe. It's obviously a repro, but as beerhunter says, fulfils a purpose.

Lest we forget DRP's scope brackets were used, I believe, on L42s to replace worn out brackets while in service - so they're the least 'repro' repros you can get!

Hi,
I have no problem with repro if it's only for shooting with a rifle you perfectly know it's not a real Mc Coy.
My question was how to make the difference between fake and original mounts as you by it as a real Mc Coy.
My 2 real Mc Coy have moulded and stamped but I don't know what are the difference between original machined mounts and fakes.
A fake 4t rifle is not hte same than a fake one. No?
Indeed I believe also that peolple maiking fakes are also reading collector's furum and so fakes are getting better now than before
How was stamped the Holland & Holland mounts?
Readed that in a book but which one and were?
K31/43

Hi K31/43,
The original brackets (mounts) were made during WW2 by two companies in the UK & also by one in Canada (Canadian production obviously being used specifically on Long Branch snipers). The two companies in the UK who produced the brackets were Dalgleish of Glasgow & Rose Brothers of Gainsborough. The Dalgleish brackets were marked just below the front cradle with their allotted factory code of 'N 92' & this was marked on all of their production. However, over the years, & with perhaps several refurbishments, it is not always apparent today. Rose Brothers brackets are identifiable in that they have a slightly slimmer more rounded profile of the main central 'strut' or body of the bracket, & on this central part their examiners' mark was stamped. (Again, after many years & several FTR's this may not always be very clearly discernible). There are two identified to date; 'JG' which is rather commoner, & also 'KD'. It's only supposition on my part but I've always rather thought these letters were probably the initials of the examiners.

As regards how to avoid being duped by fakers I would most strongly suggest you look back over the many, many threads on this forum relating to No4 snipers, as there are a great many photographs of original brackets both on rifles & off, & seeing lots of originals (or even photographs of same) is the best way to learn. You will soon come to recognise the 'smell' of a real one, as well as that of a fake!

ATB

DRP is right, look at lot's and lot's of photos and if poss, 'handle' the real thing. Bit like Germen third Reich medal collecting, (boy there's lot's of fakes of them out there selling for hundreds and sometimes thousands of pounds) it's often in the 'feel' and 'weight' as well as the look of the item.

DRP's brackets are very good. I have one mounted on my L39 with a Weaver K3-1 3x power scope and consistently hit the black with each shot at a 1000 yards. However, this does also depend on the quality and fit of the pads on the rifle to which the bracket is mounted. If they are wrong - all is wrong despite how 'good' or 'genuine' the bracket and/or scope might be. ;)

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Originally Posted by Jugs

Bit like Germen third Reich medal collecting, (boy there's lot's of fakes of them out there selling for hundreds and sometimes thousands of pounds) it's often in the 'feel' and 'weight' as well as the look of the item.

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Not just the third reich medals Jugs, I think there was around 700 men in the battle of Balaclava (Charge of the Light Brigade) I guess there is double or trebble that figure of Crimea medals relating to the charge in private collections etc now.

Trafalger medals are even made with scratches, dents and dings etc....

Like the oft-quoted statistic about the painter, Matisse: in his lifetime he painted 800 canvasses - 2,000 of which are now in America.

Thats a good one RobD, looking for an old post of mine which had a bit regarding fakes, the main point was that its estimated over 40% of the worlds artwork in museums etc is fake/forged.

Back to the reproduction items, I,m all for them, I,ve a LEC that has been waiting for some time for parts etc and is now 90% complete, and this is only down to a few enterprising indviduals Like DRP who go out there way to produce an item that is not on the shelves anymore, without them we would be shooting a lot more sporterised rifles etc than milspec rifles, its only when these repro,s are used by a third party to build up a fake and then proceed to make a few ££ by punting it out as an original then it becomes a problem.

Regarding your quote Robd, I Just wonder how many not correct No4T,s are in cirulation today?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobD

Like the oft-quoted statistic about the painter, Matisse: in his lifetime he painted 800 canvasses - 2,000 of which are now in America.

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Yes, and what is a "fake" in the art world when there are painters as technically brilliant as the "old masters", perhaps even greater, as some of them could and can produce perfect copies of the same.

I read a few years ago an article about reproductions/replicas. If I have this the right way around, it stated that generally a replica was a copy of an item made by the same company/individual as the original and a reproduction was a copy of an item by a individual/company other than the original.

There are still a few "saddlers" ("Sattler") around here in Germany and in the western parts of Poland (maybe even in Bohemia) who still have the lasts etc. for Luger (P08) regulation pistol holsters. And some are still being sold. Are these copies, originals or fakes? And when did they stop being "original" and "genuine"? Maybe directly after the German capitulation was signed? Almost any item that was not hand crafted can be manufactured to original specifications.