World Wide Arms have sourced some. The Mk3's are apparently ex-Irish army:
DA372 BREN Mk3 LMG - 02-DeAc Machine Guns
DA481 BREN L4A3 NATO LMG - 02-DeAc Machine Guns
Sadly there's no chance of me bumping into a spare £650 any time soon.:(
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World Wide Arms have sourced some. The Mk3's are apparently ex-Irish army:
DA372 BREN Mk3 LMG - 02-DeAc Machine Guns
DA481 BREN L4A3 NATO LMG - 02-DeAc Machine Guns
Sadly there's no chance of me bumping into a spare £650 any time soon.:(
What I could do with those.........only if the US would allow. It would be pretty to awesome to have the whole crate.
I saw them and wouldn't mind a MK3 Bren...alas, I'm in a similar situation and I'm also unlikely to suddenly find £650....which is a bit of a bugger! :(Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
Nearly a grand each for the L4s and they sold out! I like a bit of nostalgia but not for that money.
Damn! I'd just about got them MK3 Brens out of my mind until this thread came to the top again!! :lol:
I wonder how many they had and how quick they're selling 'em...gawd I hate being skint, always seems to happen when you want something!! Just had to put 4 tyres on my Land Rover...can't help but think that money would of gone towards a nice chunk of MK3 Bren instead...couple of years time the Bren will of increased in value but me tyres will be shagged!:(
It was too much in the end...I cracked, couldn't resist any longer...thank god for layaway plans!:D
I have purchased a Mk3 Bren ex Irish Army. All matching numbers and little used. S/N UE 55 A3024. A lot of money but worth it. I thought if I waited until War and Peace I would miss out!
Pssssst..... If you have a Mk3 Bren with the serial number commencing UE 55 or 56A xxxx, then listen closely. Ignore any of that Irish this that and the other stuff. They were the final run of work guns made at Enfield for and issued to and for the RAF. Unless the RAF fly for the Irish Army, this is who they were for.
Is this something you found on record Peter? I have evidence that there were still Mk3s being assembled in 1961 and between 1957 and 61 there were approx 2000 assembled and the remaining 500 (Approx)Mk3 bodies were converted directly to L4A4s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Thank you for the information Peter. This means I went to the trouble to swap two bayonets for an ex Irish Army Brengun tool kit, tool roll, gun cover and sling. For nothing Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!
You still got a Mk3 but an RAF one. Yes, they were the final run of work guns. I will speak later BP
Any one got an RAF blue Brengun sling.........................? :)
Our slings (LMG) were just the normal Green/Tan slings, the No.4 drill rifles had blue/grey or white slings but even these were blancod tan slings. I have seen RAF blue slings though, so they do exist.
I'm not a collector of any sort and especially not of anything that you have to scrub and blanco as the novelty seems to have worn off after a few years of having to do so. But I digress...... I was never aware of there ever being a grey/blue RAF colour sling for the Bren. Rifle, yes, Sterling yes but Sten and Bren, no. But I might be wrong. However, all this absolutely mind blowing stupidity of the Navy having navy blue vehiclesand white webbing etc etc and the RAF having blue/grey vehicles and webbing and the Army having Deep bronze green vehicles and various shades of webbing, depending on which regiment you were with, rightly got the chop by Sir Derek Rayner who was called into look at Admiralty Air Ministry and War Department finances back in the very early 70's.
Can you believe that the various Forces used to pay a premium to acquire commercial vehicles, painted at the factory in a non standard colour like Deep Bronze Green. And then, try to sell them off after 80,000 miles to the public - in a paint scheme that NOBODY wanted! And furthermore, there was not even the remotest possibility that these commercial vehicles, such as cars and mini busses would EVER get within 100 miles of the front line. And the RAF having blue grey webbing and battledress that was camouflaged with absolutely nothing except the sky!!!!! It was ridiculous. But not for long after Rayner got his teeth into it. Thereafter all webbing was issued for land service.
Sorry to go off at a tangent but while I dealt with zillions of various slings, including various shades of khaki, black, dark green and grey/blue, I never saw an RAF grey/blue long Bren sling.
The best stuff I ever had was pattern '44 that we just had to dunk in an old oil drum of warm water and leave to dry. No scrubbing, blanco brass, just as it should be
So, where did the Irish Contract story come from then?
There's obviously a large batch of MK3's just been released and World Wide Arms at least seem to think they are Irish. What is the history of them, sounds like from what Peter is saying they were made for the RAF, but then what happened to them and where did they go?
I'm presuming that the fact they have been released and deactivated means they haven't just come direct from the MoD and if they are ex RAF they must of been sold off by the UK to a third party at some point in time, would they of gone to Ireland then, were they ever even in Ireland? I'm of course presuming that they did indeed come from Ireland using the thought that if WWA bought them, then I'd guess they knew where they had bought them from?
Any more info about them Peter? It sounds like they have bit more history to them than the 'Irish Contract' and bunged into storage for 50 odd years tale?
I'm getting impatient now...hopefully week commencing 9th September should see my MK3 arriving! :D
Who knows where they've been? But they were made on contract FOR and issued TO the RAF. Irish contract............ Have you ever heard the phrase '....a load of old b-------'?
I have seen a few of these "Irish" MK3 Brenguns about. These all seem to be matching number etc and have extending legs bipods. Some others I have seen on sale by Chelmsford and D&B are stamped on some parts P.O.F. But the main bodies are Enfield. These tend to be on sale for £500 to £550. DWSUK have some very nice UE56 MK3 Brenguns for sale. The photographs have the serial numbers on.
I am a member of the VCRAI. When I mentioned I was purchasing an Irish Brengun. Members of the VCRAI posted photographs of the last Bren shoot and confirmed the retirement of the Bren from the PDF in 2006.
It does not worry me where any of my deactivated guns saw service. However what I object to is an advert stating something that is false as an inducement to purchase. My MK3 Brengun is Enfield made. S/N UE55 A3024. If any one has proof of who this was sold to I will need to know about it. World Wide Arms web site and catalogue definitely states these guns are "Irish Contract". Stories of old boc**ks are one thing. Fraud is another. No one can afford to spend £670 on something that is misdescribed. If I get the proof I am taking this matter up.
Thank you for the help and sharing the information.
Kind regards, Lester
Look Lester........... I'm going to be as polite as I can be. You bought a Mk3 Bren, made at Enfield in whenever - and guess what you got? Yep............. A Mk3 Bren, made at Enfield in when ever. No one in the whole wide world can tell you where it's been and dealers - and the arms trade in particular are more secretive than the FBI. But I can only tell you that they were originally...........Oh, don't make me repeat it all over and over again. Chill out and enjoy it, even if you can never shoot it
(IDF,Irish Defence Force ?) One of the last Irish Army Bren shoots was conducted in June 2009 when 31 reserve Cavalry finally retired its Mk3 Brens, 2,500 rounds of .303 ammunition expended in one practise using 6 guns..no stoppages.Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterH
These are earlier imported MK3 Brens from Pakistan and nothing to do with the ex-Irish Army Brens.Do not confuse all Brens for sale at a similar time as having come from the same source.Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterH
I am in no way conected to WWA's but would advise that you edit some of your statements as this is a public forum and someone might take the matter up with you rather than the other way round. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterH
The ex Irish Army MK3 Brens are well documentated with the importer (not WWA's) for commercial privacy reasons the importer who tendered for them will not be named (by me).
Here is a picture of one still wrapped with Enfield tag.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...11a55ab1-1.jpg
ATB Kevin
And if you look at the labels, you'll distinctly see the RAF stores label AND RAF stores 7K- catalogue number! As I said earlier, maybe the RAF used to do a bit of moonlighting for the Irish RAF!
To be honest, 2,500 rounds isn't large 'farewell shoot' by any stretch of the imagination. I'd call that a whimper as opposed to a bang. Consider that we used 40,000 rounds with our Vickers guns
I wouldn't be surprised if (The RAF being RAF) these RAF Bren Mk3s were originally ordered by the RAF and then cancelled, just like some of these in the wrap No.4s. You'll be glad to know that things never change.
Latest rumour on the street about the RAF/RN 'New' Joint Strike Fighter (AKA Lightning II) is that the American Defence department are looking into the possibility of cancelling the contract completely which means we can't go it alone and we would then have 2 Royal Navy Aircraft carriers we can't use and can't sell because it doesn't have a catapult!
All interesting stuff, just shows nowt is ever just like it seems! I guess the history of them will be lost to time now, whilst it's nice to know where they've come from and all that I suppose that wherever their past it means it's enabled me to end up with a nice MK3 Bren, well I hope it's a nice one, not actually seen it yet!!
Peter, it's off topic I know, but I noticed in the local rag that there is going to be some sort of plaque/stone type thing installed somewhere on the site of Hadrian's Camp to commemorate all you REME apprentice types etc that went thru it in years gone by.
Peter and KevinG. Thank you for the information. I am now reassured. Kind regards, Lester
My deact MK3 Bren arrived today, seems like an age I've been waiting for it.
It's 1955 dated (U.E.55), Serial No. A3029 and is fully matching (Upper, Lower, Barrel Nut and Barrel).
Very nice it is too but I suspect it's been 'enhanced' with a rattle can of Halfords (or similar) Satin Black paint...probably, initially, to cover over any marks from the deactivation but then looks like a few extra bits have been touched up too whilst the can was out! Whilst the gun does look good and I'm happy enough with it I'd of preferred it if it had just been left in its original finish even if it was a little bit rougher...though the way the paint is coming off already I suspect it'll be back to how it was at some point.
Now to try and find a decent MKIII mag to go with it, it came with a MK II* mag and my only MKIII mag is about ready for the scrap heap!!
A3029 is on the serial number list that came from the Curragh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Bandit
ATB KG
Thanks for the info Kevin! :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
So I guess I know mine was an 'Irish one' then, at some point in its past, even if it didn't start life there or wasn't originally intended to go there (ie the RAF contract Peter mentioned)?
It's nice to know a little bit of its history, looking at the gun I'd say mine is one that has seen a bit of use over the years rather than stuck in the stores virtually untouched, albeit probably not that much use, just enough of a worn look to the finish around the trigger and trigger guard, barrel release nut lever (this is a bit hidden under the 'paint job'), selector switch etc where hands and fingers have rubbed the finish away to show some use which I quite like, plus the woodwork on the butt, carry/barrel release handle and pistol grip show a few signs of action. Aye, I quite like this one! :)
I suppose I should get around to taking some pics sometime...
Just out of curiosity Kevin, how well documented are they? As in is it possible to tell which Regiment/Unit etc they were issued to/came from? I'm guessing that it's probably not that detailed but you never know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
The only info (that I'm aware of) is the serial numbers as they are logged to the holding RFD.
ATB Kevin
Cheers Kevin, wasn't really sure how much info there would be but figured it was worth asking, thanks anyhow!:)
With regard to Enfield Bren production 1955/56 for foreign/overseas orders that would be serial number marked UE 55 or 56 the extract below may be of interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
RSAF Enfield costings completion report for the 55/56 Irish Republic MK3 Bren contract -
1000 guns - £56,871, five shillings and sixpence
15,960 magazines - £11,085 , 2 shillings and ten pence
73 spare items - £2,535 , eleven shillings and sixpence
Total contract value - £70,491 , nineteen shillings and ten pence.
There were other foreign government Bren contracts that also encompass the 55/56 time period listed with final costing break downs so hope this doesn't muddy the waters too much with reference to 'all 55/56 Brens were made for and issued to the RAF.'
ATB Kevin
See exactly where you're coming from KG but the simple fact is that those few I saw ALL had (or the remains of) their old RAF stores CONTRACT labels still attached together with the old A-M small arms part code numbers
Regarding the UK UF/UE/UB type serial numbers on these guns, it's worth noting that the instructione were that these were only to be allocated to UK Military contracts. For example, New Zealand and Rhodesia (as was) Ceylon (as was again.... and I think Portugal but I'll have to check on this one) wanted L2A3 guns with the L2A3 US58A type serial numbers but couldn't have them. And again, when the commercial users such as the Police wanted the L96, they were not permitted to have the UA80A type numbers. Riot/baton round guns from Enfield with UE serial numbers. ONLY to the UK Military.......... Just something else to consider
There is a Company in Munich that produces single fire Versions of several machine guns and machine pistols, but they don't have a Bren in the line up. If they could get hold of a truckload they would probably be offering it. I know they have Stens and MG42 Units for sale that have been registered as Sport rifles in Germany, so they should be acceptable in other EU countries, but I don't have the 4200 Euros they are asking for them. I think I saw the Sten for 850 Euros.
I'd love a live Bren and I know there are a lot of other Brits who would too. Trouble is, lots of those people used to use them and they'd all be going for the go fast switch only to be disapointed when they can't get it out of first gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfowler
Yes, I do see that. I know it is difficult to Register any form of firearm in Britain. Still, the Company is
Niedermeier GmbH
Zenettistraße 29
80337 München
Bayern
Telefon: 0049 89 776737
E-Mail: info@waffen-niedermeier.de
Waffen Niedermeier - Ihr Büchsenmacher für Sammlerwaffen Sportwaffen Dekowaffen Jagdwaffen in München
I expect somebody there speaks English
Maybe they could resurrect a load of old deacts into single shot live firing Bren 'sporting rifles' After all, they aren't starting from a live firearm. They are starting from a non firearm as defined in law. So technically the 'once an MG, always an MG' rule of thumb wouldn't apply. After all, it doesn't seem to apply to single shot L1A1's.......................
Go for it BP.
Well, I think in some cases they are building them from parts, not converting an existing one. Then they give it a slightly different Name and suddenly it stops being a machine gun.
Bavaria is known for a very liberal Interpretation of any form of firearms Regulation. If you want, I can give them a call at some Point and ask if there is anything Happening in that direction.
Yes the wrapped ones did have both RAF and Army coded numbers on them but until I can find the allocated serial numbers for the 55/56 Irish contract for the thousand Brens already mentioned it isn't known if these wrapped Brens were part of that contract or a later order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I'd be interested to know what the procedure was regarding foriegn contracts after manufacture and proofing.Were they stored and shipped directly from Enfield or were the stored at somewhere like Weedon until ready for export ?
ATB Kevin