1888 Commision Rifle

I have a Steyr 1890 rifle sent home in WW2. The barrel was packed with grease until February of this year. I tapped lead down the barrel end and it measured around .312 to .314. The chamber end is .434. I easily un-screwed the barrel shroud and it is marked 7.7mm. This gun has the "S" stamped on it, but also has late model K98 ramp sites according to a person on another forum. I cannot chamber a 8mm Remington Mauser round, it hits on the shoulder. I managed to get a AK47 spent round about an inch into the chamber and applied a little pressure with the bolt and it left a partial ring around the case at the inch mark. The Mauser round measures .467 at the rim and .427 before the shoulder. I am thinking broken case, but do not see any brass. I will try and upload pictures but am at a loss as to if it is a 8mm or a re-barreled something else. Any help would be appreciated.
Lyle

Post a picture or two. You have Kar98 rear sights or Gew98 rear sights?

Old chambers are worn, by any amount from zero (i.e. mint) to so much as to be noticeably sloppy. But I have never yet seen one that had become tighter.
Calif-Steve rightly points out that pictures are required.
At present, I can see 4 possibilities:
1) Substantial corrosion or baked-on crud.
2) A broken-off case.
3) It is indeed a rechambered heaven-knows-what.
4) Someone inserted a chamber sleeve in order to be able to use some other 8mm cartridge, like the 8x33 short cartridge for the WW2 "Sturmgewehr". And this cartridge does indeed have a shoulder that starts 23.5mm in from the base. Which would explain the ring mark you observed at about 1" in from the base.

No point in further speculation from this distance - make a good photo from the chamber end!

Just for fun, I am guessing it is 4).

Actually, have a chamber cast done, it is the only way you will get any accurate idea of what you have. Photographs posted on the internet will tell you (or us) nothing - it's a hands on job.

Do all of this after having a qualified, experienced gunsmith look at it.

Is the rifle in military trim, or is it a sporter. When I see 7.7 on a gun, I think .303 or 7.7 Japanese. Assuming the riflecame home from Europe, I woud guess at a post-war British sporting conversion to .303 British. If pacific theatre, it could be a gun that went to China and was rebarelled by the Japanese.

Pictures may help.

Hope these uploaded.....Lyle

GEW 88 on one side of the gun, clearly stamped. The 1st pic is from a bore scope inside the chamber as far as I could get the tool. The second is the ramp up site. The "S" with the CE below it?? The block that someone carved out. The barrel under the heat shroud. The chamber end you can still see some of the 60+ year old grease that was in there. And the stock where it has been cut. I can get more if needed.
Lyle

I added 3 more photos, close up of the sites and a couple more done with the bore scope from the chamber end. You can see the rifling in the barrel.
Lyle

Single-shot Gew88 with Gew98 rear sights. This was a early 1900 target rifle? Very likely, but is that a new barrel or merely re-chambered?.

As far as caliber, have a gunsmith do a chamber cast to see exactly what you have, anything else is just speculation. It may be a wildcat so you will never know, I doubt it is British so probably not a standard .303.

Very interesting. As Calif-Steve says, the rifle has had a Gew 98 Lange Vizier rear sight added to replace the original Gew88 rear sight. And it has had the magazine blocked to disallow the use of the magazine meaning it is single shot only.

I vote for a post military, one off, target rifle. And definitely done in Europe.

Some of the pictures of the chamber cast I did. I also removed the barrel with very little trouble.
Some measurements of the casting -VS- 8mm cartridge....
BASE Cast .421 8mm .465
Shoulder before angle Cast .348 8mm .426
Length of cartridge Cast 1.822 8mm 1.852
Middle picture is bottom 30-30, casting, and AK round. Any more ideas on this thing????
Lyle

Very odd. The chamber casting does not go deep enough - it needs to go right up to the start of rifling. What is there indicates an almost neckless case that looks similar in style to an 32-40 or the German 8,15x46R. Both rimmed cases for target shooting. Both capable of high accuracy. The ring on the casting may be just the transition from case body to neck.

Some dimensions in inches:
Dimension Casting 32-40 8,15x46R
Base diameter,,0.421 ,,,,, 0.424 ,,,,, 0.421
Length to start of neck (there is no real shoulder on the 32-40)
------------------ 1.822 ,,,, 1.645 ,,,, 1.115 (start) 1.335 (end)
Neck diameter, 0.348 ,,,,, 0.346 ,,,, 0.346
Case length ,,,,,,,??? ,,,,,, 2.13 ,,,,, 1.82

From the lack of a real shoulder, it looks more like a 32-40 than anything else I have. But it might be a "home-brew". Note that the barrel was easily removed (suspicious!) and the protruding ring at the breech end has been filed down to allow the extractor to hook over the rim. It does not look like professional gunsmith work to me, and not done in Germany either, as the law requires reproofing and stamping with the correct chambering designation after a conversion. Do not go by the markings on the barrel, which may no longer apply.

I think we need another, longer and more exact chamber casting going right up to the start of the rifling and showing the base/start of rim. And yes, gew8805 is quite right. In this case the whole assembly should be looked at by a professional gunsmith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gew8805

And definitely done in Europe.

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On this point, I respectfully disagree. In countries that require proofing of firearms - which for the last century or more means probably every country in Europe with commercial arms production - rechambering invalidates proof and a new proof is mandatory. See Wirnsberger "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks". The land of unproofed wildcat conversions is quite clearly located somewhat further out to the West.

I believe your rifle is chambered for the 8.15x46R mm target cartridge (would also explain the rear sight too). Years ago I loaded this cartridge for a single shot Schuetzen rifle, I used Remington 30-30 cases in RCBS dies, the rim diameter and the case length also had to be reduced. Only lead bullets were used, there are variations in the bore diameters.

There were some bolt action military rifles also chambered for the 8.15x46Rmm too as I have seen Mauser 98's but never a Model 88. These rifles use a bullet with a jacket which you would never consider for the older single shot rifles. Photos show some post war cartridges produced for the modern 8.15x46mm riflesAttachment 43806

I am pretty sure this was done somewhere in Europe as my uncle was in a mechanized unit that came along after the battles and either they got the stuff running again or they destroyed it. He sent home a couple of Mausers, this gun, a half of parachute, and some nice German optic made binoculars. This gun was sitting in a closet in our old farm house in Eastern Washington state since the war. It was moved to my fathers house in the late 70's and was packed with grease since before it was sent home until February of this year. If the barrel was change out, it most likely was done somewhere before WW2. I had PB blaster sitting in the chamber for the last 10 days and noticed a small weep around the barrel area. The threads were the same as the original if it was made for it. I just put a little pressure on the barrel with a pipe wrench and held the chamber flat with my hand on a block of wood so as not to put any pressure on the trigger and it turned.
I am working on a deeper chamber cast but the first couple of ties got stuck beyond the chamber area as I must have set my patches to deep into the rifling, or a stuck casing????
Lyle

Here is the latest casting of the chamber. I had a hard time as if I went to deep, it would not come out. I put a mark by what appears to be the top of the casting as the rifling starts just about the ring on the casting, you can see the start of it if you look close. I took a file to the breach area of the barrel. There is a definite ring around it as can be seen in the pictures, but the material in there is steel. I am trying to contact a gun smith. Any ideas now???
Lyle

I cannot find any 7.7mm rifle chambering other than the British and Japanese cartridges, both of which have a clearly defined shoulder. The breech face shows saw or file marks, the extractor cutaway is crude, and the chamber casting shows odd ripples. The measurements are vaguely in the area of an 8.15x46R. Furthermore, 7.7mm land (NOT groove) diameter and 6 grooves would also be OK for an 8.15x46R

As before, I think it should be handled with extreme caution.

Studying Wirnsberger again (German section), I now interpret the barrel markings as follows:
7,7m/m = land diameter
46 = cartridge length in mm
So it does seem to be an (nominal) 8.15x46 chambering.
3.30 ought to be the powder charge in grams. BUT the powder type and quantity is not specified, UNLESS it is indicated by the 679. No indication of bullet weight.
And where is the proper proof mark?
All not very satisfactory!

E.v.N. could indicate either the owner or the gunsmith that did the conversion (E... von N...)
I have no explanation for the "O".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gew8805

I vote for a post military, one off, target rifle. And definitely done in Europe.

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I think you may well be right, after all. But the tatty breech face and chamber profile bother me.

I took a file and just slightly drug it across the face of the chamber and it created what looks like a ring in the chamber. I took a piece of wire with a hook on it and could not feel anything like a stuck cartridge. I can put a Remington 8mm round into the bolt face and extractor, it fits perfect. A local guy told me his dad said when they would come by a town they took over the guns would be piled up in a stack and ammunition and bolts were in another pile. It may be my uncle picked up the only non 8mm gun there and a bolt for a 8mm?? The gun serial numbers all match except the barrel has been change out and the bolt is about 1700 numbers later. I am trying to get in touch with a local retired gun smith to see if he has any ideas on this thing. Does anyone know if a 32-40 and the 8.15x46R are the same case and die? Thanks again to all.
Lyle

I use to load 8,15x46R mm or 7,7x46R mm. I used 30-30 Remington cartridge cases, I had to reduced the outside rim diameter (used a lathe) and had to reduce the total length. I used RCBS loading dies. I loaded these cartridges for a German single shot underlever rifle with double set triggers and only used lead bullets.

I also load 32-40 Winchester for a heavy barrel Winchester Hi-Wall rifle with double set triggers.

The 32-40 Winchester cartridge will not chamber into a 7,7 or 8,15 x46 R mm chamber as the case is too long and the rim is too large

I re-slugged the barrel and also back it up with a 3/4 inch casting from the tip of the barrel. The bore is .316 and the markings on the chamber casting are about as close as you can get for the 8.15x46R case. Still heading to a gunsmith before I go any further. Either they say its a shooter or it becomes a wall hanger.
Lyle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ldpfeifer

Does anyone know if a 32-40 and the 8.15x46R are the same case and die?

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No, they are not!

This has been a great thread, very interesting rifle.

Your still going to have to modify your bolt to accept the 7.7x46Rmm case head. I tried a 8.15x46R mm case on my G.33/40 bolt and it will not fit ! check it out.

You might watch Ebay for Gew88 barrels. They do sell frequently and for cheap money. That would certainly solve some problems here.

With everyone's help, I bought some 8.15x46R dies, cut down some 30-30 cases and bought some over-sized lead 30-30 bullets. I strapped this gun to a stool and rigged up a trigger pull from phone line. Fired it 4 times, cut it loose and put one in the target on the first shot. For a gun that has been silent for 60 years plus, what a day!
Now I am trying to fix the sights. These look the same as the Gewehr 98, but as can be seen in the pictures, they have been cut down to fit. The back "V" part is wind-age adjustable with a screw that was frozen and now snapped off. I am in the process of trying to remove it, but at a loss as the G-98 never had wind-age adjustments.
Any more help would be appreciated.
Lyle

As this appears to be a "Home-brew" it is not possible to give type-specific advice. To remove the broken screw, use a tap extractor, a.k.a. "EZ-out" - if you can get one small enough. Otherwise you will have to drill it out, an awkward job...