I just glommed a pair of No4 MKII's at an on-line auction...one still in the wrap, one out. They are supposed to be consecutive serial numbers.
"UF 55's"
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1995d32f-1.jpg
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I just glommed a pair of No4 MKII's at an on-line auction...one still in the wrap, one out. They are supposed to be consecutive serial numbers.
"UF 55's"
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1995d32f-1.jpg
Nice catch, we used to see those around some years back and many were bought just to have a mint-er...those guys must be getting on now and selling a bit of that.
nice score.
Nice one, best of both worlds, one out and one in the wrap, and consecutive numbers, not a wrapper man myself as it wouldnt work here with my local force but can understand the collectors point.
Thanks guys
It will probably be a few weeks before I actually have the guns in hand. I'll post better pics when they arrive.
Firearms Canada has a pair new unwrapped No4 Mk2 $2200 for both consecutive#s
Thanks, EAL...I got these for considerably lessQuote:
Originally Posted by EAL303
Do these come with the bayonet inside the wrap?
fantastic rifles ! i love my 52F two scratches from new ha !
NONE come with bayonets inside the wrap! If they do, they've ben UN-wrapped because they leave the factory and are issued as just the rifle. Bayonets are issued as a totally separate item. They even have a different VAOS category to boot!
OK, then. I won't expect to find one when I look in the wrapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Thanks, Peter.
The bayonets and scabbards were packed separately in their own wrappers. 10 to a box if memory serves. When I had 400 No.4's imported from South Africa via Interarms back in the early 90's, I had boxes and boxes full of No.9Mk.1 bayonets but no scabbards. I bought and imported a quantity of No.5Mk.1 bayonets in the 90's too and they were also wrapped and boxed as were the scabbards. The scabbards were always hard to find because the No.5Mk.1 scabbard was used on the No.5, No.7, No.9, L1A1, L1A3 and L2, (Sterling), bayonets.
Thanks, Brian
I've got an Irish Contract No4 with a matching bayonet. Is that just a lot of hokum, or did some rifles come with matching bayos?
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Somebody stamped the rifle number onto your bayonet and scabbard. It wasn't ever made as a matched pair or issued like that! Indeed, some...., not me you understand....., say that the 'matching bayonet thing was just a sales gimmick.
As for the 'Irish contract' thing.......... One day, in the future when it's diplomatically the right time to do so, I'll tell you all a few home truths
tell us now, Peter, we would all enjoy hearing.
Yep, why wait?
Politics..........
Very very nice! Congratulations!
I've got a pair of 1943 LB's which are consecutively serial numbered, but they sure ain't mint!
Ed
Thanks, ba.
Better pics when they arrive.
My pair of Enfields arrived at my FFL today and it looks like everything is as advertised. Consecutive serial numbers, one in the wrap and one out and cleaned up, but not fired. Was able to snap a few pics at my FFL's before they went into the safe.
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps30b6-1.jpg
Better pics after the 10 day "cooling off" period.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../06/zdum-1.jpg
Re bayonets, from what i've been able to find out, the lump that i have highlighted could well be a bayonet as this is the location in the wrap i was told you can find them.
Can you tell by giving it a quick grope...? If it is a bayo it should be pretty obvious...maybe...?Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
Thanks, 5th, I'll check it when the 10 day waiting period is up.
That's the middle band and sling loop. Listen......... THEY WERE NOT PACKED WITH BAYONETS. The old VAOS number is on the wrapper for you to see. If there was a bayonet in there, it would be identified by a different ASSEMBLY (B1/CR xx-A) or GENERAL assembly (B1/CRxx-GA) part number
While I am sure that Capt. Laidler is correct in so far as UK military practice, when I was speaking with fellows that did the inventory at Irish barracks prior to shipment overseas, the details were otherwise.
On unissued rifles that were in the original boxes, the packing consisted of the following: each wood box had 5 rifles wrapped in grease, along with 5 bayonets and scabbards. The bayonets and scabbards were wrapped in greased paper. They were not serialized to any of the rifles. They were not in the wrap with the rifle, but packed with the rifles in the same box.
The men (members of the FCA) cut open the wrappings on each and every rifle by the left hand side of the action body, to ensure that the serial number of rifle matched the posted copy on the box.
The wrappings were not removed, a simple slice was made in line with where the action body markings were and the paper peeled back to reveal the data.
When it is prudent to do so, you'll read some home truths about these Irish rifles from a MOST unlikely but impeccable source. I'll call then 'so called' Irish rifles from now on..........
Re threads 24 and 25 above, maybe I should have used the word WRAPPED instead of packed so line 1 thread 24 should read '....they were not wrapped with bayonets'
Not to detract from a lively debate about the 'Irish Contract', Calfed's wrapped rifle is UF 55 A15546. I've read on another British forum (ARRSE) that the 'Irish' rifles were in the 'PF' series, and the 'UF' series starting in '54 were for the RAF but most stayed in stores till sold off, perhaps, like Calfed's two rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
You are getting VERY warm DrWeiler. The UF serial number prefix was a requirement for the UK Military and on the No4's in particular, for the RAF who were to be armed with No4's for many years thereafter. This was due to a forthcoming (at the time) shortage of the new L1A1's due to industrial strife at Fazakerley. Strife the eventually turned into suicide.
Don't forget that until the 70's the Navy, RAF and ASrmy were TOTALLY separate forces with their own procurement and logistical systems
i always thought that the "irish contract" rifles were to be shipped to the ireland but the one english bloke said..."wait a minute.........you want to give weapons to the bloody irish?? are you mad? " the english had a change of heart and the rifles went into storage........why send guns to the IRA? .......those guys were making their own machine guns, those enfields would have been used against the english....
If the Irish Army had all the weapons that were supposedly shipped to them (but they didn't.....) they'd have had enough to numerically equip 30 complete Infantry Battalions.............. Say that again slowly...... THIRTY complete Infantry Battalions........ For a Defence Force for a nation with only one border!
Hate to say this as I hold Capt Laidler in the very highest regard but.......
The following records exist:
1) Initial trials procurement of 500 rifles in 1953. The record is a letter referring to an initial lot of No 4 MK II rifles and Karl Gustav M45 submachine guns to be trialed in 1953. No idea if actual trial lot occurred but a sampling of supposed Irish lot rifles indicates a number outside of the generally listed serial number lot came out of Ireland.
2) Letter stating the full procurement of rifles was 50,000 MK II rifles (with the serial number ranges some in the UF 55 A series) and that the type was entered into service in October 1954. This letter was from a colonel of the Irish army, the data from the Irish military archives.
3) Records of use that indicate the active army was equipped with these rifles from October of 1954 until ~1961 (FN-LAR replaced it) and the FCA was equipped with this type from around the fall of 1957 until replacement with the FN-LAR in 1988.
4) Recollections from a well known UK Firm involved in the inspection of these rifles, in Ireland (initial used rifle sales lot). The rifles were located in Ireland at the time of first inspection (late 1989 or early 1990).
5) Sales records from the Irish archives that indicate between 48,900 and 49,889 of these rifles were sold between 1991 and 1997. The differences relate to the quantities of No 2 MK IV riles which were sold off in the first sales lot in 1991 (5,889 rifles, of which some percentage were No 2 Mk IV rifles).
6) Records of FCA soldiers who were involved in the shipment of the rifles out of Ireland which match the time of the last sale.
7) Records from a large sporting rifle firm in Germany (Frankonia) that purchased a number of these rifles from Century Arms. These rifles were shipped out of the UK and not the US or Canada, so at least a portion of the rifles went through the UK or so this one firm indicates. This firm had both PF and UF serial number rifles in the importation lot.
8) Confirmation from Century that they did buy rifles directly from Ireland, and from the distributors that they sold too data on the importation of these rifles in the US (directly) and the secondarily; last lot (1997) was imported into Canada, then sold from there in the US around 2002
Now it may well be that these records are in some way wrong, but that is the official records that myself and other researchers have found. If so I would be very interested in knowning the exact reason these records are in error. I posted the official records of the serial number ranges on this board a year or so ago. Those records came directly from the Irish military archives.
If they procured 50,000 rifles, then mathematically that's in excess of about 65 FULL Infantry Battalions which is considerably more than Britain had at the time. I say no more................. except that the Irish Army is a Defence Force and Ireland has one border - and that's a few hundred miles long............
Capt. Laidler, a very good point. However a look a the stocks of rifles held by the Irish from 1939 to 1953 do not indicate the quantity figure to be that odd:
The stock figure in September of 1939 was 42,500 rifles of withich only 24,700 were first line. The only real increment in rifles in WWII was the 20,000 M1917 sold/given to Ireland in August September of 1941. Even with those rifles the Irish home guard had to requisition something like 7,000 shotguns to equip their forces in the emergency (what the Irish cal WWII) at the height of mobilization in late 1942~43
By 1953 the Irish Arm held the following stocks of small arms (approximate figures based on sales records from 1960, 1987 and 1991 to 1996):
SMLE MK III and Mk III*: ~32,000 rifles with an additional ~ 500 new barreled actions.
No 2 MK IV: between 889 and 989 rifles
SMLE MKI***: ~8,800
M1917 rifles: 19,962
P1914 (t) rifles: 119
Grand total of around 61,500 rifles, of which, (based on sales records and those known to have been dumped at sea) ~55,000 were in some manner usable as service rifles. The SMLE rifles had all been obtained between 1921 and 1925, though some number of barreled actions were purchased in the interwar period. Limited parts purchase from Britain occurred in December of 1940. The US M1917 rifles were in a non standard caliber 30-06. In short the stock was quite old and well worn.
In the period after WWII the Irish army was rather concerned that if another big conflict came along they would be ill-equipped as they were in 1939. Now as to why they would buy such numbers, in 1946 the FCA (which replaced the home guard) was set to have a cadre force of 99 rifle battalions. Each battalion was supposed to maintain at least a company strength (130 members at least) to be retained as active. If mobilized to half battalion strength they would have needed something like arms for 50 battalions. I do not know how long this plan continued, but I gather it was dropped around 1957 when the FCA was reequipped according the regular Irish army TO&E. Some references do say it was difficult to keep the FCA independent area Battalions/companies going, there was no interest by the Irish in peace time.
Also note when the Irish made the first big sale of SMLE rifles, P14 rifles and M1917 rifles they held back around 10,000 SMLE rifles, so it would seem they wanted to retain a stock of around 60,000 rifles of a common caliber, at least in 1959~60 when the sale was made. Of course the wisdom of buying 50,000 bolt action rifles in 1953~55, when the pattern was clearly dated is odd, but that is what the records show.
Once again, I just say this............ If they procured 50,000 brand new rifles in 1954/55, then mathematically that's in excess of about 65 FULL Infantry Battalions which is considerably more than Britain had at the time. I say no more................. except that the Irish Army is a Defence Force and Ireland has one border - and that's a few hundred miles long............ And here's something else to ponder........... No, I won't go on but read threads 14 and 17!
Interesting..
Well I for one look forward to hearing the real story. I would very much like to hear it.
Finally picked up my goods from my FFL. I was able to go over the rifles carefully and everything seems as advertised...one cleaned up and unfired, one still in the wrap.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps6c66-1.jpg
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Thankfully, the import mark isn't to bad.
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