Did Holland & Holland use recycled scopes?

Greetings All

A question for the experts out there. Is there any data that H&H would/did refit used scopes off a condemed snipers to later rifles?

I ask as a very nice '44 BSA "G" serial number rifle has come up with a mid-range Kodak (6900 s/n range) Mk I that is all matching and correct. A 1944 dated rifle with a 1941 dated scope raises many red flags but this one appears legit with:

H&H stampings on the receiver and butt stock (including "T" stamp)
matching can with matching paper tag inside
matching scope mount with staked screws (untouched)

Any insight is appreciated!!

I must admit Lance, I'd never given it a thought. It's actually quite an interesting question. I've no doubt that scopes would not have been 'wasted' but I've never heard of any definite evidence that they were 'recycled' through H&H. Of course it could have happened. Like you I generally have a high degree of suspicion of any 4T which is supposedly 'all originally matching' where the scope is of substantially earlier production than the rifle. I have seen quite a lot of 4T's & L42's over the years, & I have yet to see a genuinely originally matching kit that bore a later scope than the rifle. But if scopes were recycled then I guess it could have happened in relatively small quantities. Maybe others might be able to shed some light on the issue - I'd really like to know the answer myself now.

ATB

I would seriously doubt that scopes were re-used......... They went from the factories down to H&H as required. It's there that any recycling problems would arise. Just HOW would a recycled scope get back into the system?

It's like asking whether Land Rover would put an old recon engine from an obsolescent series of L-R into a new land rover that's going into service. To be honest, I have never heard of such a notion and so I VERY much doubt it. Nope......, could never (?) happen. In MY opinion

Since I have a 1944 rifle that seems to go with a 1941 scope, my suspicion has long been that there may have been some wartime scope "recycling". Have observed at least one other, and have had indications that there may be a few more floating about. It's not an unreasonable supposition. By 1944 rifle conversions were at near on maximum output. In addition to scope reuse, it would not be out of consideration that rear sights were being recyled as well, as they were often the second most expensive part(actually, subassembly) of the rifle.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff025-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff005-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0151-1.jpg

Consider the parallel of US M1 Garand production. Not only was Springfield Armory running the production line full tilt in 1944, but they also had excess production purely for the rebuild of M1s both in the field and at the Armory itself. And this for a rifle that was probably four years old or less! But they still had some production tie ups, esp. in '43. Any critical item that could be refielded surely wasn't "retired" just because it didn't "match" the rest of the gear.

I wonder if it could have been fitted during a delivery shortfall of suitable Mk.III scopes in order to keep production going? This is a total WAG on my part but it could be as simple as H&H having a few Mk.I scopes that weren't fitted after the change to the Mk.II and held in stores. Then during a protracted delay in the delivery of Mk.III scopes the Mk.I's were simply pulled from stores and fitted to get the kit out the door. A sniper rifle with an obsolete scope has got to be better than one with no scope at all? Again a guess but I'll throw it out there as an alternative the the recycled theory.

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Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)

Again a guess but I'll throw it out there as an alternative the the recycled theory.

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Given the condition difference between the two, I'll stick with the "reused" version. It seemed the same on the other rifle. Early/mid 1944 seems the right time for such an occurrance. "Too soon" for earlier rifles, and "no pressing need" later on.

If Lance could get photos, it would be most helpul!

Got some photo's to share showing the markings, no rear sight though......

Fascinating. Compare the pics of the two scope tin labels - identical typing; the stencilled RIFLE and number on the scope tins - identical. These 2 rifles and their scopes are like peas in a pod.

Well, whether they are 'recycled' or 'production shortfall substitutions' the rigs certainly look kosher. These are the first rifles I have ever seen that look plausible as genuinely having matching scopes dated earlier than they are. However, I suspect these must be very scarce beasts & I would still urge great caution to collectors contemplating buying a 'matching' 4T if the scope is early & the rifle late.

Gotta try & find one now......!

ATB

There is probably an explanation and I see where you're all coming from but knowing the procurement system as it has been since the 60's or so and until very recently, then there is not the slightest chance of an item of kit coming back from service to the manufacturer then going back into the supply chain. Telescopes, like Land Rovers, Omega and Longines wristwatches, Kershaw binos etc etc simply didn't go back to the manufacturers for FTR like rifles.

Peter,
I know it's speculation, but if you feel the 'recycled' explanation could not happen, how about the possibility that the earlier scopes may have been supplied &/or fitted at a time of temporary glitch in the supply of Mk2 or Mk3 scopes?

ATB

Or if we had one damaged rifle with good scope and one good rifle with damaged scope?

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Or if we had one damaged rifle with good scope and one good rifle with damaged scope?

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I would guess this was the case, Both 1944 rifles, is it not a saying anything is possible during a War? or the old saying mend and make do.
I just think at this time everyone was stretched to the limit am sure 1944 was the peak time of everything back then (or the build up to D Day for them in the know) other thing I was thinking maybe training rifles ?

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

...other thing I was thinking maybe training rifles ?

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You are setting your aspirations too high! Like pretty much any No.4 Mk.(T) in close to "as delivered" condition, these rifles likely spent almost all of their military careers in the stores room. Toward the back. As back-ups to the stuff that went "out" on a regular basis. The rifles with "history" have (almost) all been rebuilt, possibly multiple times. And the ex-front line rifles probably mostly went to India and such after the war...Easy way to spare the expense of dealing with "tired" and early gear.

That's an interesting point jm. I've often had people ask me for 4T's & they want a 44 or 45 rifle, 'not an early one'. Yet, in fact, from the batch that we bought, it was almost invariably the early rifles; the 41 BSA's, Savage's & Maltby's that were the tightest, with the least worn bores. This may sound odd, but I suspect it is explicable on the basis that the late rifles are the examples that would have seen most use in the post-war era as they would be the weapons fitted with Mk3 scopes. The early kit may have seen some action during the war but is then most likely to have been disposed of (by whatever means) after 1945. (No doubt some would have gone to India & seen further heavy use, but not all). Hence, the service lives of most of the early conversions were probably a lot shorter than the later rifles. I have several 1941 & 42 rifles with tight-as-a-drum headspacing & razor sharp lands........

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

The early kit may have seen some action during the war but is then most likely to have been disposed of (by whatever means) after 1945.

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Makes perfect sense to me! Not too many opportunities to view early rifles here, with the exception of Savages. Those seem to pop up regularly.

Interesting thread. Pity H&H didn't keep a log book of what they worked on and when.