Long range .303

I'm new to this forum but hopefully you all can help me.

I mostly shoot Fullbore Target Rifles to distances of 1000m and I have a No4 Mk 1* to play with when I've finished my normal shooting. It holds a good group up to 600m but when I shoot at 900m and 1000m targets it is horrendously inaccurate and the butt markers say they can hear the bullet tumbling.

Is there a fix to this or am I trying to over-reach with a 70+ year old rifle? As far as I can tell it has a good bore with correct headspace and no muzzle wear from pull-throughs. It is a two groove original barrel should that make a difference.

I normally shoot 174gr Privi Partisan and do well enough with my other rifles!

Cheers!

i am no expert my any means. but a 5 groove barrel might give you better accuracy. but a 175 grain bullet should be good to a 1000 with 303, i would think.... i am shooting at 500 with a scope and around 300 with irons. on a no 4 mk 1 2 of them. but i have not taken it out pass 500 yards.

The PPU .303 is not the same as the ammunition it was designed to shoot. PPU is boat-tailed and the Mk.VII was flat based.

I have found that PPU works OK on some rifles some of the time but I have seen the groups tighten up on all my Lee-Enfields by the use of a flat based bullet.

BTW, tests over the years have shown the 2 groove barrels to be perfectly good.

interesting to know about the flat based bullets. is this still using 175 grain?

The boat-tailed bullet was introduced to service .303 way back in the 1930s. The whole idea was to extend the useful range of the bullet.

At supersonic speeds, the boat-tail DOES reduce the base-drag a LITTLE, but most of the drag on ANY bullet travelling faster than sound is from the "shock" or "compression' cone formed at the NOSE of the bullet.

However, as the bullet approaches the trans-sonic speed range, two things happen: the shock-cone moves BACKWARDS and the airflow becomes more laminar and starts to generate base turbulence, and thus, drag.

A boat-tail WILL reduce base drag a little during supersonic flight, but it really comes into its own in the trans and subsonic zones.

The boat-tailed Mk8z bullet as in the commonly available PPU stuff is essentially machine-gun ammo. The BIG problem with ALL boat-tailed bullets in ALL rifles is base blow-by.

This is especially a problem in Lee-Enfields because of the rifling dimensions: .303" bore but the grooves can often run out to .318 or larger and still be in factory spec. Thus, at launch, the bore/groove "hole' is NOT fully obturated (sealed) because the bullet is smaller than the groove diameter by a few thou. Thus, some gas will leak around the base. If the base is a boat-tail, then there is NO way it will "bump-up" to completely seal the grooves. Not only that, but the truncated cone that is the boat-tail, tends to act as a wedge to force the gases AROUND the rear of the bullet. If the seal is not perfect, there WILL be blow-by and consequent gas-cutting of the throat. This is NOT a good thing in your trusty, collectible Lee-Enfield.

Furthermore, because the Boat-tailed bullet is of almost identical length to the Mk7, the presence of said boat-tail also reduced the effective bearing length of the bullet in the rifling. The trick with same length / heavier bullet was achieved by the simple expedient of swapping the light "nose filler" in Mk7 bullets for a tapered (boat) tail on the Mk8. The Mk8 bullet/ cartridge HAD to be the same length as the Mk7 or the entire inventory of machine-gums would have required re-engineering of their feed mechanisms..

This was a continuation of the matter from when the round-nosed, heavy .303 Mk6 was supplanted by the spitzer, 174gn Mk7. As it was, the change to Mk7 ammo meant that the entire RIFLE inventory required new MAGAZINES because the ones built around Mk6 ammo would not retain or feed Mk7 ammo reliably enough.

As for the "tumbling" noise at 100yds: at that range the bullet id DEFINITELY subsonic. thus the target-pullers will not hear the CRACK heard at 800 yds or shorter. The "crack" is a "baby" sonic boom. Bullets that "whizz" are subsonic.

The other thing that happens is that the bullet is Spun VERY fast by th w1:10" rifling twist. Whilst "linear" speed drops dramatically with range, ROTATIONAL speed does not. Rotational speed provides stabilization, which is all very handy, except that the trajectoryis not a straight line, but more of a parabola. Thus a bullet launched at, say 15 degrees above level will attempt to maintain that angle all the way down range. The problem is that the nose of the bullet SHOULD be following the parabolic flight path. So, the rotational inertia (spin) tries to keep the nose pointing at say, 15 degrees, whilst the aerodynamic forces ate trying to make the bullet follow the parabolic path. Eventually something has to give.

At some point (or several points) the "wobble" introduced by the conflict of these two "forces" will result in the bullet going a little "wild" and deviating from the trajectory, usually in e set of spirals called "precession". Once aerodynamic forces have shoved the bullet back onto the nominal trajectory, all will be fine for a few more micro-seconds, until the process is repeated. The "wilder" the precession and the longer it takes for the bullet to restabilize, the more the bullet will deviate from the required trajectory.; i.e. your groups get bigger.

The 1:10" twist in a .303 barrel is required to stabilise a bullet of the LENGTH of a Mk7 from as close to the muzzle as possible. Experienced full-bore shooters will have noticed that their trusty old .303s have "pet" ranges and can be real "dogs" at others. This is all tied in with the process of adjustment "steps" that go on during the flight of the bullet. ALL rifle ammunition does this to varying degrees.

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Originally Posted by BritishBeer

Is there a fix to this or am I trying to over-reach with a 70+ year old rifle?
Cheers!

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An average No4 should be perfectly capable of staying in the black at 1,000yds, given the right shooter and conditions. Good No4s are capable of staying in the 4 ring at 1,000.

Try and find some cordite, if you know anyone who has some, or try S&B ammo. Although S&B is boat-tail as well, the bullets are a shade heavier than Privi. Quite often you get a dramatically different performance in a "sensitive" rifle between the two nearly-identical loads.

If you have no luck, its probably worth swapping the rifle for a different one. Your rifle is perfectly good for the average plinking club shooter, but as a long-range TR shooter you'd be better off with one that is good to 1,200 with Privi.

I think it must just be more worn out than I thought. Currently it's more of a fun rifle and one I enjoy for its history so I'll keep it for now and just shoot it to 600.

Need to rebarrel my Musgrave so can't afford to upgrade!

Thanks for the info Oz, think I understand most of it! The butt markers are generally quite experienced and state its tumbling rather than just from far away. Could be a mistake.

Is there any commercial ammo with a flat base that anyone knows is available in the UK? All I've seen are S&B and PPU. Trying to get my head round reloading .308 atm so that's not an option for .303.

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Originally Posted by BritishBeer

Is there any commercial ammo with a flat base that anyone knows is available in the UK?

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Not that I know of. In fact its quite difficult to get FB bullets for reloading, at a reasonable cost. Identical copies of the Mk.VII bullet are available in the UK but at a price!

I found a 174Gn. FB South African manufactured bullet a few years ago that performed particularly well but they are extremely difficult to source in the UK.

Try B&S Products here in the UK, they make facsimile bullets to the original specifications .303 MkVI & MkVIII, these are hand swaged bullets.

They aint cheap but worth a try before you decide the rifle is no good for long range.

They advertise in the HBSA journal:

Tel: 01302 330726

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

the entire inventory of machine-gums

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? Is that some kind of Aussie tree? With clockwork koalas eating the metal-foil leaves?:madsmile:

But seriously, thanks to Bruce for an excellent explanation! To which I would like to add: since the cartridge must have some sideways play in the chamber, the case neck will actually be sitting on the bottom of the neck portion of the chamber. So the gas flow around the bullet is not symmetrical. Result: the bullet is pushed to one side, which will cause it to be engraved with a slight skew.

Before anyone laughs, the amount of skew to produce 1 MOA deviation over the 1/2" cylindrical section of a typical bullet is about 1.5 ten-thousandths of an inch. So when the bullet emerges from the muzzle it is being launched with a small precession that will increase the effect described by Bruce. Somewhere in his books Dr Beat Kneubuehl has a picture showing how precession and nutation can produce a small spiral deviation in the trajectory that worsens the group size as it is a matter of chance where the bullet is in the spiral movement when it hits the target.

BritishBeer, you could try the Hornady type 3130, 180 round-nose, with probably the longest cylindrical section you can get in commercial bullets. They are at least a partial cure if your rifle has a worn throat. Alternatives are the Speer 180gn round-nose and the Sierra 180gn ProHunter spitzer.

And, of course, make sure that you use neck-sized cases for reloading. You don't even need a neck-sizing die, just back off the normal sizing die so that a little unsized ring (1-2mm) is left at the neck/shoulder junction. This un-resized ring will help to keep the cartridge neck centered in the chamber. It's kinder to the brass than full resizing too!

Finally, check that the muzzle crown is absolutely as perfect as you can get it. Any asymmetry (or, heaven forbid, nicks) results in a little kick to one side when the bullet emerges, which also produces the precession/nutation effects.

Whilst I completely agree with the bulk of your post Bruce, I do take issue with your comments about the Mark VIIIz bullet.

In practice it is no heavier than a Mark VII bullet. It is specified at 175 grains against the 174 grains of the Mark VII but both have a +- 2 grain tolerance so it is perfectly possible to have a 173 grain Mark VIIIz and a 176 grain Mark VII, both within tolerance.

Also, it is only the overall length of the cartridge that matters, not bullet length. The Mark VIIIz bullet is some 8% longer than the Mark VII. The Mark VII bullet averages 32mm in length but the Mark VIIIz averages 34.5mm, the extra 2.5mm being within the case.

Regards
TonyE

If the throat or leade is worn in with cordite ammo, I guarantee it won't perform with boat tail bullets. see numerous posts in the past here by myself and others on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

If the throat or leade is worn in with cordite ammo, I guarantee it won't perform with boat tail bullets. see numerous posts in the past here by myself and others on the subject.

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Brian...

In the absence of a throat gauge or some other measuring instrument, is there a ball-park way of identifying a cordite worn leade? Looking into the chamber end with adequate light at the muzzle, its fairly obvious to see how worn the rifling is...when compared to a barrel that is new. Goes without saying, but maybe shooting it with boat tails is the only practical way to really draw a conclusion on performance?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

the Hornady type 3130, 180 round-nose, with probably the longest cylindrical section you can get in commercial bullets. They are at least a partial cure if your rifle has a worn throat. Alternatives are the Speer 180gn round-nose and the Sierra 180gn ProHunter spitzer.

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I'm so glad that you used the word probably. This 174Gn. bullet is available Attachment 44077 but only just.

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

I'm so glad that you used the word probably.

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Experience has taught me to avoid words like "never" and "always". I have occasionally seen bullets like that offered in Germany. But even by muzzle-loader standards, I reckon the BC must be pretty poor, leading to a fairly rapid fall-off in velocity at long distances.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I reckon the BC must be pretty poor, leading to a fairly rapid fall-off in velocity at long distances.

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I agree. Flying dustbins (trash cans) comes to mind. They work well at 100 and 200 yards. I haven't had chance to try them at 600 and above. I imagine that they will not do well. :(

For the longer ranges I plan to use the BS Mk.VII bullets, when I can get a mortgage for a pack. :D

Just a thought,
What if,for short range plinking you "removed" the boat tail, grinding it off to make a flat base bullet and of course a bit lighter. A lot of work but may work pretty good at 100/200yds.

I still leaves the bullet with a small bearing surface and probably inherently unstable as well.

Why not get a friendly machinist to make you a die to expand the BT to a hollow base flat base.

Or....... just take the pragmatic view, shared by most of the Armourers reading these pages. If it's a worn barrel/throat/chamber as indicated by the Vickers leed gauge, then just accept that it is a worn barrel, therfore inaccurate - and just gotta be replaced. There's a saying that worn barrels NEVER, ever improve with age!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Or....... just take the pragmatic view, shared by most of the Armourers reading these pages. If it's a worn barrel/throat/chyamber as indicated by the Vickers leed gauge, then just accept that it is a worn barrel, therfore inaccurate - and just gotta be replaced. There's a saying that worn barrels NEVER, ever improve with age!

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Just a minor Q Peter where do i get a new or near new barrel, is that the same place as the rocking horse poo next to the bugie teeth on the top shelf next to the fairy dust. I will send you an order number for a couple of crates of barrells if you can conjur up the export import paper work.

I believe criterion barrels will be making both No1 MkIII and No4 barrels in the not to distant future.

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Originally Posted by aussietomcatter

I believe criterion barrels will be making both No1 MkIII and No4 barrels in the not to distant future.

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Just an andepodean, bushwacking, hillbilly,redneck bludging retiree to another retiree who more than likely will tell me in very correct Queens English where to go with a brisk salute minus most fingers.
Hope you are on the money about Criterion. I think TSE or MADDCO are doing No1 Mk3. Dont know which weight.

Try some Sierra 180 grain Pro-Hunter projectiles if you can get them. They're the best I've found short of real Mk.7 which are impossible to find.

Gods honest truth on everything I hold dear,...I had a bolt that was stripped out and I lost it one day on a ride which held the brake drum from rotating with the wheel on a 73' Harley Davidson. I fixed it with a STICK and a piece of BUBBLE GUN on the side of the road and it was still there the day I sold it. Sometimes you need to adapt and overcome when your 19yrs old an broke...

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Try some Sierra 180 grain Pro-Hunter projectiles if you can get them. They're the best I've found short of real Mk.7 which are impossible to find.

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Believe it or not Brian, it is illegal to use them in the UK for target shooting.

It's another case of our government "gold plating an EU Directive.

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Originally Posted by BritishBeer

Need to rebarrel my Musgrave so can't afford to upgrade!

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BB,

What cal is your Musgrave?

Beerhunter,
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Sierra dropped the ball on the Mk.7 bullet project I tried to instigate. I don't have the money to foot the bill alone. Gotta love this brave new world we're in. It just gets better and better with each passing day. Jeez!!

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Try some Sierra 180 grain Pro-Hunter projectiles if you can get them.

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Nice to know that someone out there agrees with me!

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

BritishBeer, you could try the Hornady type 3130, 180 round-nose, with probably the longest cylindrical section you can get in commercial bullets. They are at least a partial cure if your rifle has a worn throat. Alternatives are the Speer 180gn round-nose and the Sierra 180gn ProHunter spitzer.

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

Believe it or not Brian, it is illegal to use them in the UK for target shooting. It's another case of our government "gold plating an EU Directive.

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I would be interested to hear more about what sounds like another piece of bureaucratic lunacy. Hunting laws in Germany prohibit the use of some types of bullet (and indeed some calibers, depending on the game classification) that cannot provide a clean kill. But there is no danger of a poor, injured target slowly bleeding to death.

The EU-excuse is the standard smokescreen put up by British bureaucrats who do not actually have a solid argument for their latest attempts to make life difficult, relying on the fact that Joe Q Public does not know any better. If you lived in my neighbourhood, I would happily bet you a beer that no-one can produce an EU Directive that states that bullets suitable for hunting may not be used for target shooting.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Nice to know that someone out there agrees with me!

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If you are in Germany, how come you can use the pro-hunters when its against EU law except for hunting?

I remember the Directive way back. At the time the UK Government gave us all expanding ammo on our FACs automatically so as to cover the Directive. However the 1997 Act put the ban on their use for target shooting into primary legislation by moving them into Section 5 with an exemption for hunting.

Thus I have two entries in my FAC for .22 RF for example. One lot fort Target Shooting and another covering expanding ammunition for hunting.

Kynoch (in the UK) do - or did - make a MkVII round with a flat based 174 gr bullet.

Have a look at the link below - in particular post 17 showing pics - but maybe worth reading the whole thread.

Bullets for the .303?

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

If you are in Germany, how come you can use the pro-hunters when its against EU law except for hunting?

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So Who says so? Where? Which law?

I must repeat myself. I doubt that anyone can cite a specific European Directive that bans the type of bullet we are discussing, but I look forward to being enlightened. And a soft-nosed spitzer-type bullet is not expanding ammunition in the sense of a dum-dum bullet - or the hollow-point projectiles that seem to be popular with pistol shooters, or projectiles deliberately made to be highly frangible.

All lead-filled bullets will expand to some extent when they hit something hard. I once fired a 520 gn bullet from my 45-70 Sharps at a thick steel plate at 50 meters. it didn't just expand - it disappeared, leaving the plate looking as it it had been soldered all over. So is someone out there claiming that the use of soft lead bullets is illegal?

I seriously would like to know the background to this, as there are enough people over here who would like to ban anything and everything, and it is a good idea to be prepared.

Note: there is more than one EU directive, so "the Directive" does not specify anything usefully. If you can cite a specific Directive I shall look it up and study it. In such matters, one must get away from hearsay and look at the sources.

Please let's no fall out over this. Until I get time to do the research here it is from memory. In the early 1990s there was an EU directive that was much discussed in the UK shooting press. The UK Government dealt with it by a blanket derogation (is the the word?) which led to us getting two entries for each calibre of ammunition in our FACs - one regular and one for expanding.

In the 1997 ACT the government moved all ammunition and projectiles "designed or adapted to expand" into Section 5 with the exception for hunting.

Soft-point IS designed to expand, that's why we use it, as is some hollow point. However some hollow-point target projectiles have hollow point from the manufacturing process, that is to say: they are not " designed to expand" and so we can use them - and I do. BTW these last points have been back of forth with the HO and ACPO and the above is where we are in the UK today.

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

Please let's no fall out over this.

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That is not intended. What is intended is to point out that people should not blindly accept restrictive interpretations on a more-or-less hearsay basis, but take the trouble to read the source information. If those concerned do not take this trouble, they are at the mercy of those who wilfully distort the interpretation to suit their own purposes, usually in a restrictive manner.

In this instance, you may be thinking of the

COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 18 June 1991 on control of the acquisition and possession of weapons (91/477/EEC)

of which I now provide an extract:
....
Category A - Prohibited firearms
1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.
2. Automatic firearms.
3. Firearms disguised as other objects.
4. Ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles, and the projectiles for such ammunition.
5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.
(my underlining and marking as bold text)

Category B - Firearms subject to authorization
1. Semi-automatic or repeating short firearms.
2. Single-shot short firearms with centre-fire percussion.
3. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is less than 28 cm.
4. Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.
5. Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber cannot together hold more than three rounds, where the loading device is removable or where it is not certain that the weapon cannot be converted, with ordinary tools, into a weapon whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.
6. Repeating and semi-automatic long firearms with smooth-bore barrels not exceeding 60 cm in length.
7. Semi-automatic firearms for civilian use which resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms.

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration
1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.
2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.
3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.
4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

Category D - Other firearms
Single-shot long firearms with smooth-bore barrels....

....etc. etc. There is no other instance of the word "expanding" in the directive.

Let us look more closely at the only sentence containing the word "expanding".

Category A - Prohibited firearms
....
....
5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.

Dissecting this sentence, we have:
Pistol and revolver ammunition ... (i.e. it only refers to handguns. There is no mention of rifles or other "long firearms".)

...with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition... (which does not specify what exactly constitutes an expanding projectile, thus providing a loophole for the restrictors to interpret as they wish)

...except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting... (which is the case, I imagine for most of us)

... for persons entitled to use them. (As documented, for instance, by a firearms licence).

There is no way that I can infer from the above, that a particular type of rifle bullet, suitable for hunting, is therefore forbidden for target shooting. In fact, the intended ban (for handguns) is specifically excepted "in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting".

I regret to say that it appears that with the 1997 Act you refer to, British shooters have been screwed yet again (sorry, but it really is the apt word) by a deliberately false interpretation being first of all propagated as EU legislation (incorrect, see above) and then made into British law - and, of course, blamed on the EU. The restriction is a British invention, not EU legislation, and thus it does not exist in Germany. The generally prohibited ammunition is specified in A 4) above. I shall continue to use ProHunters and anything else that is not prohibited by A 4).

QED.

Those who would destroy our sport are trying this sort of thing continually. The EU Directives are public documents, did you all read them? Sorry, I realize that's an unfair question - we all trust too much that those considered to be responsible read them and correctly interpret the stipulations. I leave it to your judgement whether you consider this trust to have been justified in the matter discussed here.

Moderators: this is a presentation of factual information on legislation that affects our legitimate activities. And legislation is a fact, not a political argument.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

BB,

What cal is your Musgrave?

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.308. Has absolutely no type markings but is a fairly standard UK style target rifle.

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------

I imagine that once most countries agreed to never use hollow point bullets in a war as part of the treaty I've forgotten the name of, the government decided to limit who has them without needing them for hunting.

Interestingly though the .308 match rounds I normally shoot have a hollow at the tip to form a 'bubble' to improve accuracy.

Hello Patrick,
I do not have my copy of the law to hand but the reason the Pro Hunters will be banned for Target Shooting is that after The Firearms Amendment Act 1997 ALL bullets that were designed to 'Expand' became prohbited except for hunting. The mention of the EU refers to an earlier ruling that tried to do the same thing but far from 'Gold Plating' it the UK basically ignored it which is why I had .455 Manstoppers in my Mark VI Webley.

The (UK) Frearms legislation was amended in 1997 as follows :

Prohibited ammunition: expanding ammunition and missiles for
expanding ammunition

General 9. In section 5(1A) of the 1968 Act (weapons and ammunition subject
prohibition of to general prohibition), for paragraph (f) there shall be substituted the
expanding following paragraph—

ammunition etc. . . . . "(f) any ammunition which incorporates a missile designed or
adapted to expand on impact;".
Expanding 1O.—(1) Section 5A of the 1968 Act (exemptions from requirement of
ammunition etc.: authority under section 5) shall be amended as follows.
exemptions from
prohibition. (2) In subsection (4) (shooting of animals)—
(a) after the word "acquire", in the first place it appears, there shall
be inserted the words ", or to sell or transfer,"; and
(b) for paragraphs (a) and (b) there shall be substituted the
following paragraphs—

"(a) he is authorised by a firearm certificate or visitor's firearm
permit to possess, or purchase or acquire, any expanding
ammunition; and
(b) the certificate or permit is subject to a condition restricting
the use of any expanding ammunition to use in connection
with any one or more of the following, namely—

(i) the lawful shooting of deer;
(ii) the shooting of vermin or, in the course of
carrying on activities in connection with the
management of any estate, other wildlife;
(iii) the humane killing of animals;
(iv) the shooting of animals for the protection of
other animals or humans.".

ie - expanding ammunition can ONLY be used for 'hunting' and not for target shooting.

It apears that the problem may be the interpretation of 'expanding' - cartainly all the gunshops I use view 'soft-points' (or anything that is not jacketed) as 'expanding amunition'.

Thank you gentlemen for confirming that the "expanding" problem is a home-grown UK invention. The sneaky trick is to blame it on "EU law". That is, surprise, surprise, word-twisting. The EU issues Directives, which are intended to be implemented as national laws. Without wishing to get into what may be construed as politics, the UK has the reputation of being able to ignore such directives for decades if they go against the interests of, say, the finance sector...

No need to blame it on EU, it's a direct outcome of Cullen and Dunblane, and one of his specific recommendations.

Umm, if you can hunt with " Silver Exploding Fragmentation High Velocity Hollow Points " but can't sight your rifle in with them isn't that Inhuman,??
Who are these so called " Entitled "??

If you're allowed section 5 ammunition for hunting then you're allowed to zero your rifle by target shooting. Doesn't work the other way around.

Thank you all. I go the EU pistol Directive mixed up with Cullen. My apologies all round.

Initially the Home Office announced that they had discovered that hunting rifles had fixed sights, so they would never need zeroing.

Section 76, sub section IV,Part H,
In the event of a Werewolf attack on the streets of London it shall be permissible to use.
a. Silver tipped bullets.
b. Silver tipped hollow points.
c. Expanding ammunition not to exceed .38 caliber.
d. Expanding ammunition designed to mimic jacketed ammunition except is more effective against hostile Werewolf's.
e. It shall be unlawful to have a Bayonet attached and use Expanding ammunition, as this combination is considered a weapon of mass destruction under Section 11, part 4, line 7.
:madsmile: we feel your pain fellas.....

so for 303 175 grain or better?

174gr. or better flat base.


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