Australian use of old Ross sniper rifles in WWII??

I recently interviewed a 92 yr old veteran of the Kokoda Track (Papua New Guinea WWII). His mind was sharp, as was his memory. He was emphatic that his battalion, the 3rd Bn, was issued with six old (assumed he meant WWI vintage) Canadian sniper rifles, with scopes, in late 1942. Most of the Australian snipers were issued with either the British (but made in USA) P14 sniper rifle, or heavy barrel Lee Enfield SMLE HT, in late 1942. But these went first to the 2nd AIF - his militia Bn got what ever was left. This is the first I've heard of the Australians using the Ross rifle. Has anyone know of the Aust Army using or even having Ross rifles?
Thanx, Glenn

That's very interesting Glenn...I could see the sniper rifles being held in reserves somewhere and eventually coming to light when needed.

You should ask more questions such as "where was the scope mounted: overhead or offset", "was the bolt different from the Lee Enfield in any way?" (not giving away the straight pull aspect ;-) )

I've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of confusion between the P14 and the Ross in the minds of many soldiers. Tom Barker, whose memoirs "Sniper on Crete" are online, was also told that his rifle was a Ross. I corresponded with him and we determined from the features that he could definitely remember, that his rifle was an Alex Martin converted P14 with an offset scope, probably an Aldis No2 or No3. He also told me where he put it before he was ordered to surrender, so one day I shall visit that part of Crete!

It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.

One has to remember that 99.9999% of soldiers are not firearms enthusiasts: a rifle is just a tool to them and they remember only the most distinctive features as most people would. In the case of the Ross and P14 that is the one piece stock and the projecting barrel.

The straight pull is the kicker though.

Ask him if he or any of his former mates have any photos showing their rifles.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That's very interesting Glenn...I could see the sniper rifles being held in reserves somewhere and eventually coming to light when needed.

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Its interesting trying to fathom how that time was from here 70+ years later. Officially the book I have says many WW1 sniper rifles were recalled after the war and dismantled and some parts kept. At the start of ww2 from what I can read some P14s at least were "re-engineered" for sniper use using stored ww1 scopes until the no4 mk1T was available with its new scope. However I could quite believe that second or third line troops could have been handed anything that shoots. eg my maternal grandfather was in the home guard and actually used his own shotgun. He didnt mind apparantly as nights out patroling the local beaches allowed him to knab rabbits and put meat on the household table. So I guess 6 Ross's sitting in OZ somehow with scopes and handed to rear line troops is possible.....

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

[QUOTE=8><----It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.
.[/QUOTE]

Ive seen a few Ross's in auctions now, seem to average about 2 per auction, ex mil ones and not sporters, Id guess they were brought home from ww1...

"Australian Service Longarms" lists such arms as the M1873 Winchester and Johnson M1941 but no mention of Ross rifles.

According to documents examined by Clive Law, after Dunkirk an urgent request was made to Canada for Ross rifles fitted with scopes. The reply was sent back that there were none available. Obviously the reputation of the Ross for accuracy was remembered, even it if always denigrated officially as a service rifle. The same book "Without Warning" documents how the remaining WWI Ross/Warner & Swasey units were used for training in Canada for several years, presumably until sufficient No4(T)s became available; that is except for either 80 or 150 presumably loose W&S scopes which were taken to the UK by the 1st Canadian Division and fitted to P14s. Seems doubtful that any would have made it to the SW Pacific unless they did so after 1943, as we know the P14 W&S was still in service with the Canadians in Italy that year. However, it is possible that rifles became available as the No4(T) replaced them in Canadian units I suppose. Whether anyone would have taken the trouble to send them out to New Guinea I don't know, but I rather doubt it. Still, someone took the trouble to send some Alex Martin P14s to the Med in 1941 where Tom Barker was issued one on his way to Crete, and no one else in his battalion was, so one never knows!

There is another account in a book called "Not as a Duty Only" by an Australian officer on loan to a British regiment in NW Europe in 1944 in which he mentions two snipers in his regiment using "Canadian Ross rifles" and taking out a German officer at 1000 yards as measured by range finder. I suspect these were P14s, but we may never know for sure.

If anyone in Australia can track down the author who name I forget, they might be able to nail down the story. I wrote years and years ago to the publisher but never got a reply.

One thought that crosses my mind is whether a number of Ross rifles may have been sold off and exported to Australia as range or hunting rifles during the interwar years. If they had, isn't it possible that a number of them may have been 'volunteered' for service as were numbers of heavy barrel SMLE range rifles?

I suppose anything is possible but with all those H barrel SMLE's on hand, why complicate things with a logistically unsupportable rifle?

Hopefully the OP will come back with the results of his further conversation with the vet concerned.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I suppose anything is possible but with all those H barrel SMLE's on hand, why complicate things with a logistically unsupportable rifle? ...

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Desperate times called for desperate measures?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

You should ask more questions such as "where was the scope mounted: overhead or offset", "was the bolt different from the Lee Enfield in any way?" (not giving away the straight pull aspect ;-) )

I've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of confusion between the P14 and the Ross in the minds of many soldiers. Tom Barker, whose memoirs "Sniper on Crete" are online, was also told that his rifle was a Ross. I corresponded with him and we determined from the features that he could definitely remember, that his rifle was an Alex Martin converted P14 with an offset scope, probably an Aldis No2 or No3. He also told me where he put it before he was ordered to surrender, so one day I shall visit that part of Crete!

It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.

One has to remember that 99.9999% of soldiers are not firearms enthusiasts: a rifle is just a tool to them and they remember only the most distinctive features as most people would. In the case of the Ross and P14 that is the one piece stock and the projecting barrel.

The straight pull is the kicker though.

Ask him if he or any of his former mates have any photos showing their rifles.

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I have both a Ross MKIII and a P14. The P14 is by way far the kicker. My 13yo shoots the Ross with no recoil problems but avoids tha P14 like the plauge.

A thing that adds to the Ross Rifle-P14 Confusion is that in Czechoslovakia and other Eastern European Nations, the "P14" was known as the "Ross-Enfield" for some strange reason
(found this moniker in a Czech Language Bayonet Book I picked up in Prague, 1993).

The Soviets also used this name for Both The P14 ( from Estonia etc) and the Ross Rifle ( Aid to the Czar in 1916).

Australia used P14 rifles with either British Aldis Patt.18 scopes or set up in Australia with AOC-made Scopes (P18); the SMLE HT did not get into production until 1944, and very few were issued before mid-1945;
Plenty of photos exist of the 2/2Commandos in Timor with P14 (F)(T)...Winchester (F) rifles were preferentially used (F==Fine Micrometer rear sight), and also of use in North Africa and Greece.
Britain had dismantled all its SMLE snipers of WW I, and a lot of the P14s as well. Hence the rapid development of the No4 HT, and the recall of any P14s still in good order in 1939.

As to Aussie Use of Ross with Warner and Swasey scopes... who knows??? Skennerton's deep investigation of Aussie Service Rifles did not pick any up, whilst scoring "Ring Ins" like the Dutch Johnsons ( KNIL Air Force attached to RAAF) and Canadian No4 Rifles ( diverted to Australia after Fall of Hong Kong and used by RAAF and In training Units in southern Australia).

Doc AV

Not sure if this helps but my copy of NSWRA service rifle rules for 1937 does not allow any rifle but the SMLE MK III, MKIII*, MK III heavy barrel or shortened MLE. The allowable modifications are listed and there is no mention of the Ross at all. So the likelihood of these being pre-war range rifles is unlikely.

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Originally Posted by martins8589

I have both a Ross MKIII and a P14. The P14 is by way far the kicker. My 13yo shoots the Ross with no recoil problems but avoids tha P14 like the plauge.

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That's interesting, but I can't say why that might be!

OP: any update on the 92 year old vet?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

That's interesting, but I can't say why that might be!

OP: any update on the 92 year old vet?

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I think it is due to the length of the barrel and stock -weight of the Ross.

Minimal recoil is felt with the M96 Swede rifle over the carbine as well.

Is there any evidence to suggest that Ross sniper rifles were used outside of the training in Canada during WW2? With the short supply of No.4T's to Canada during the early to mid stages of the war I'm wondering if they pressed the Ross back into operational service especially in places like Italy?





Thanks,

Paul.

Not very likely.

As in evidence or them being used outside of Canada?





Paul.

I've never seen anything about it at all, they weren't that short of gear. All we see is the off line use, such as home guard in the UK and US...even here in Canada, my father-in-law used an M1917 as his issue rifle...no Ross. I've talked to lots of guys that were there also and not once have they mentioned a Ross...

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Originally Posted by Sniper1944

Is there any evidence to suggest that Ross sniper rifles were used outside of the training in Canada during WW2? With the short supply of No.4T's to Canada during the early to mid stages of the war I'm wondering if they pressed the Ross back into operational service especially in places like Italy?

Thanks,

Paul.

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Telescope equipped Ross rifles were requested by the UK in 1940 after Dunkirk. Canadian reply was that all were needed for training. At least 80 Warner & Swasey scopes were taken to the UK by the 1st Cdn. Div. in 1940. These were fitted to P14 rifles in the UK by persons unknown. Ross MkIIIs with Warner & Swasey scopes were used for training in Canada until at least 1943, in 1944 it was recommended the scopes be scrapped; it seems most were. This is all from "Without Warning". Pacific Coast Militia Rangers were issued the MkIII in WWII as well as Winchester 94 and M17 rifles. Photos show Rosses being used by Veterans Guard or a few other security details in Canada I believe. I have seen textual references to PoW camp guards using them for example.

Since the P14 was already on issue it wouldn't have made sense to introduce another rifle into overseas service.

Cheers guys, was just something I was wondering while I was going through "Without Warning" a few weeks ago, since it mentions the rifles stayed in Canada, but not the full extent of what was done with them before they were officially scrapped.





Paul.

A Ross MK IIIB it has P14 type sights and markings that seem to indicate a connection Lithgo in Australia. The marking are as follows.

On receiver Serial number 5483 under a capital letter A, a crown over crossed lances with a p under lances and the usual Ross M 10.

On barrel again crown lances and p, a crown 2C with an E under it, a large arrow head?, a large letter N and something very small I can't make out.

Stock has markings removed.

Sounds like standard British serial number and inspector stamps for a IIIB Ross.
IIIB Ross did not have Quebec roundel, mark designation or serial number on butt.