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Not sure this counts as stock fitting as such but I'm planning on taking my No4 mk1* to a 25 metre range to play with the torque setting on the king screw and barrel bands.
I'm not even sure if torque wrenches were around in '43, but is there a factory standard to start with? Or has anyone come up with a good place to start?
Not expecting miracles but thought it'd be a nice way to kill a morning at Bisley.
Cheers
The 'King Screw' on an Enfield is correctly called the "Front Trigger Guard Screw"
There is no torque setting for this as it should be installed and 'bottomed out' - as long as the correct length collar is used you wil not crush the forend.
Here is a short excerpt from a series of 'lectures' given by Peter Laidler (have a look in the MIlsurps Library to view them)
".....Now it’s time to fit the trigger guard and Screw, rear, tie, fore-end if you have a Mk1/2 or 1/3. There’s a good chance that the rear of the trigger guard will foul due to the height of the new wood. If that’s the case, then simply scrape away the wood inside its seating to allow it to seat correctly all the way to the front. The trigger guard should not spring at the rear or front….., NO it shouldn’t! If it was meant to, it’d be made of spring steel! Now for a little tip. The COLLAR. You MUST have a collar and spring washer. This is what WE used to do. Put the front trigger guard screw into the trigger guard and body WITHOUT the washer or collar. Reverse it (that’s anti-clockwise …..) until you hear it click over the start thread and tighten it BUT COUNT THE TURNS UNTIL IT TIGHTENS AND LOCKS. Say, that it’s 7 ¼ turns to lock. Now do this with the collar fitted if it’s now, say 6 ½ turns, shorten the collar, a smidgin at a time, until the screw tightens up at exactly 7 ¼ turns. That way, you KNOW that the screw is tight, the fore-end is tight between the trigger guard and the screw and you are not crushing the living daylights out of the fore-end. And if it feels a little loose in a years time, then you can safely turn a few thou off the collar."
A loose, or backed out Front Trigger Guard Screw will initially result in vertical 'stringing' of your bullets and eventually - probably - a split forend.
A loose FTG screw will also result in the Triger Guard being loose, this will mean that the trigger is not presented at the corect angle to the sear etc. Everything is interlinked, trigger guard, trigger, sear, bolt, cocking piece, firing pin etc. etc.
DON'T DO IT without reading Peter's lectures !!!
Thanks Alan, I really ought to have checked Peter Laidler's articles before asking. I'll leave the Front Trigger Guard Screw as is, which is locked down.
I'll have a check on the articles regarding the barrel bands (apologies if that's the wrong nomenclature) but as far as I've heard before the idea is to fire a series of groups and see how tight they work best?
I would, or I am assuming that first you should be making sure the draws are correct first, plus the front bearing loading. At least thats how I read what Peter L and others have written.
BritishBeer,
I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your question about the proper amount of torque to apply to the front trigger guard screw of your Lee-Enfield No. 4 MK 1* rifle. However, as a retired Shop teacher, I can assure you that torque wrenches were in widespread use in Great Britain after World War I. I’m positive that torque wrenches were used during the assembly of British motorcycles, such as: Ariel, BSA, Matchless, Norton, Royal Enfield, Sunbeam, Triumph, Vincent, etc. during the years after World War I. (For the record, my three absolute most favorite British motorcycles that I’ve ridden are: #3 Triumph Daytona, #2 Norton Commando, #1 Norton Manx.)
I have lived almost my entire life in The United States – specifically, in the Second Amendment Freedom Encroachment (SAFE) Act State (that is, New York State). However, I am extremely fortunate to have been able to spend more than forty (40) days traveling around Great Britain – I spent the majority of that time on the Isle Of Man, as a spectator during the 1972 Isle Of Man Tourist Trophy Motorcycle Races and the 1972 Manx Grand Prix Motorcycle Races. I found the Brits – like the Canadians – to be some of the absolute very best people whom I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I also found that while most Americans and most Canadians essentially speak the same language – English, almost all Brits speak a slightly different language – British. While I was in Great Britain, I had to learn new meanings for some English/British words, such as: bog, bonnet, boot, chemist, lift, nick, paraffin, puncture, saloon, spanner, tanner, underground, wing, etc., and I also had to learn some new British words, such as: anti-clockwise, bloke, codswallop, crisps, haulier, ices, knackered, lorry, motorway, pub, roundabout, row (rhymes with now), tatty, water closet, etc.
At the risk of starting a “row” (rhymes with now) and/or being BANNED, I can’t resist asking you a very specific question because, as your user name suggests, you should be the person who is best able to answer my question. I have been trying to find the answer to my question for more than forty (40) years, and my question is:
Why is beer served at “room temperature” – that is, warm – throughout Great Britain? (For the record, my favorite British beer is Mackeson Triple Stout.)
Thanks in advance for your – and any other Brit’s – answer/answers to my question.
RALPH VAN BUREN (45B40-95B40)
The quick response to that is that we do not serve beer at room temperature, that's a myth. (That's just to further confuse tourists :P)
We serve proper beer at cellar temperature, which is 12-14ºC (roughly 53-57ºF). We do serve lager and certain beers such as Guinness (Dark Stout) or Newcastle Brown (Brown Ale) chilled.
The main reason that I can see (although many would disagree) is mostly that we used to drink beer as our staple drink and obviously there weren't any fridges. The lineage of beer from those times were all made without the expectation that they'd be cold.
The more modern reason is that beer that's too cold loses 'it's natural conditioning' and becomes less appetising. The wide range of different flavours, textures and aromas are much easier to distinguish and taste when it's served warm.
That's my two-cents anyway. A lot of people prefer lager and more American style beer and that's all served chilled. I grew up in the West Country where bitters and ales are drunk much more commonly, although proper beer's becoming more mainstream. The link I've added explains it much better than I can.
In the Pub
Cheers for the info on torque wrenches. If they've been used widely for that long I can't figure out why Anschutz still charges £75!
If you're ever back in these parts let me know, my University RC will make sure you get reacquainted with our beer (after, not before the shooting...).
And I won't get started on our nuances with language, I have the added complication of Jackspeak to confuse people with :super:
I was always told that the reason the Brits drink warm ( or at least not chilled) beer is that Lucas made refrigerators with the same reliability as their automotive electrics.:lol:
There is a school of thought for target shooters that at the centre band point the barrel has a new bearing underneath and that this point the top is packed with cork to give a mid point bearing all around, forward of this the barrel is made fully floating. However looking at the original no4 setup Ive not seen anything that suggests there is any part of the top woods bearing down or touching on the barrel (if Ive understood correctly). On top of that the std no4 setup at the front bearing with 3 to 5lbs upward pressure with the top wood above free seems and gives the best long term results from what Ive read. There is a youtube series on accurising enfields back to "as issued", : The Lee Enfield Accuracy Secrets Channel - YouTube. So your first work IMHO is look for defects and correct to whats is a 50~70 year old gun. Especially as during the war and indeed afterwardsas furniture wood was very variable in quality and hence bad effect on accuracy. For instance I have an un-issued lower forestock that has virtually no support for the trigger gaurd in the safety side of the magazine cutout, I will have to add wood or synthetic bedding material to fix that. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishBeer
If Ive not read/written this correctly, I'd be pleased to be corrected as Im currently setting my gun up as std, or what I think/hope is std.
---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------
We hold the beer in a cool cellar, we dont chill beer as that kills taste buds. I suppose its obvious why yanks, Ozzies and NZers do it, it hides the [non]-flavour of otherwise awful beer. I now live in NZ (18 years) I so miss a decent pint...Quote:
Originally Posted by RCEMERalf
:(
Main reason stopping me from moving abroad. One day my home brew will taste less revolting and I'll be off.Quote:
I now live in NZ (18 years) I so miss a decent pint...
Regarding the extra contact at the mid point, I thought one of the main benefits of the No4s over their predecessors was that it only had contact and pressure at the muzzle end?
Not speaking from experience or having tested what you mentioned but I can't imagine any target shooter having wanted a less free floating barrel.
Keeping mine std as well. My No4's not exactly rare but I like it being as original as possible.
Sorry for any typos, been out investigating more into why our beer's warm.
Look up Peter Laidler's article on stocking up, all will be explained.
Having read the articles, I have a fair bit of work to do.
Apologies for going over beaten ground when the answers were already there!
I had just this discusion with Peter some weeks back. The original and hard to beat "stocking up" is indeed from what I can read, a 3 to 5 lb upward pressure point at the muzzle end only. There have been usurpers, (various locations for mid-point bedding) but its hard to find evidence of them being much if any better than the original method. The original method also means that if you want to shoot in service rifle competitions you wont be excluded because your method isnt "as-issued". If my 2 stocks are anything to go by though, they do need repairing and fitting to get them back to as issued to restore lost accuracy due to age or bad workmanship.Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishBeer
BritishBeer & RCEMERalf & ssj – THANKS VERY MUCH !!!
Many thanks to BritishBeer & RCEMERalf & ssj for correcting my misconception that most beers are served throughout Great Britain at “room” temperature when most of those beers are actually served at “cellar” temperature.
BritishBeer:
I used to think that the British currency conversion from “old pence” to “new pence” – which started about a year and a half before I visited Great Britain – was the only thing that was purposely done to confuse tourists like myself. While I only drank British beer when I was in Great Britain, most of the beer I drank was bottled beer and not keg beer.
I bought an Anschutz 1413 in 1968 and shot it for years with no problems at all, and I never used a torque wrench on either of its action screws.
Thanks for your offer to “reacquaint” me with British beers. Unfortunately, I doubt that I’ll ever again leave the United States for the rest of my life. I’ve never had any need for a passport – my United States Army Military Police Identification Card served as my “passport” when I visited Great Britain back in 1972, and I never needed a passport any of the times I visited Canada. (Of course, the last time I visited Canada was in the early 1990’s).
Military slang has added quite a few important terms to the English/British language. “SNAFU” and “FUBAR” are probably the most used of those terms, but “GI shower” and “short timer” are two of my favorite terms.
I commend you for your continued commitment to diligently investigating why most British beers are served at cellar temperature.
RCEMERalf:
I believe that some extremely misguided Americans are primarily responsible for unjustly characterizing British Lucas automobile/motorcycle electrical components as being “unreliable” when almost all American automobile/motorcycle electrical components of the same vintage were equally unreliable. Similarly, I believe that some extremely misguided Americans are responsible for unjustly characterizing Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle as “inferior” to almost all American bolt action rifles because of the Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle’s rear locking bolt and two-piece stock only because almost all American bolt action rifles of the same vintage have front locking bolts and one-piece stocks.
ssj:
I’ve consumed my fair share of beer, and I’ve never consumed any German beer nor any British beer – either keg or bottled that had an “awful” taste. However, I
have consumed quite a few American beers – both keg and bottled – that had “awful” tastes. For the record, I gave up drinking beer – for health reasons – more than twenty (20) years ago.
Thanks again for all of your insight and information.
RALPH VAN BUREN (45B40-95B40)