Gentlemen,in my net search for basic info on my no.4 mk.1,I saw a pic of a no.5 with a micrometer sight.would that micro sight fit on a no.4?
Printable View
Gentlemen,in my net search for basic info on my no.4 mk.1,I saw a pic of a no.5 with a micrometer sight.would that micro sight fit on a no.4?
They are different. The no 5 sight is graduated to 800 yds., the no 4's is graduated to 1300 yds. It will fit bit it's not right.
Ok.thanks.
I think the MkI sight for the no4 is actually easier to find and cheaper than a no5 sight as well.
The sight my no.4 has says mkII.does that mean it is from a mk2 rifle?It does`nt look factory.It looks newer.
Not only that but because both sights are graduated on the ballistic drop of a MK.VII cartridge, due to the different sight radius of the two rifles it will not set correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gsimmons
It is easy to be misdirected about the No4 backsight Chainsaw. The ACTUAL Mk2 backsight for the No4 is the simple two-aperture flip-over backsight. The Mk3 backsight assembly is the FIRST of the two variations of the simplified, pressed and folded leaf backsights (the second variation is called the Mk4.....)
Where the confusion lies is that the actual LEAF/flip-up part of the Mk3 backsight is in fact the Mk2 LEAF. The Mk1 leaf being part of the Mk1 backsight. And yep....., the Mk4 backsight assembly has a Mk3 LEAF part!
I could go on and on about the UK Military nomenclature and numbering system but to be really honest, I've been an Armourer for just on 50 years and it STILL confuses me!
Anyway, to cut to the quick, just obtain the correct 2 -13 Mk1 backsight for your rifle. Don't use the similar 2 - 8 marked one from a No5 rifle as beery says above, the graduations are not compatible
Ok,thanks guys.
There is a whole array of different sights and very confusing.
This is a mk1 sight,
Google Image Result for http://www.ds-solutions.co.uk/images/tn%2520No5%2520JC%2520Rear%2520Sights%25201.jpg
The little thumb wheel gives 1/2 MOA, it was fitted to early no4 mk1s early in the war and to no4 mk2s after the war. It should be cheap to buy, $50US
**edited** oops what Ive shown you is a no5 sight I think.
Here you go n04 sights,
enfield no4 mk1 rear sight - Google Search
The reason there were different sights was the above one was hard and hence slow to make, so they swapped to easier to make ones to speed up production during the war. After teh war they went back to them.
Then there are competition target shooting type sights, if you want to hunt I would think the mk1 above would suit best. Its what I have for service rifle. If you want to target shoot then there are sights with windage but they cost typically 5 to 6 times as much.
Im currently looking for one of these so I can shoot in long rnage competiton but they seem to be priced around $200~300US or more,
PH5c - Google Search
Thanks ssj,for all your expertise.it is appreciated.I like that there is so much to learn about enfields,it keeps it interesting.
Im no expert, just maybe 4 months ahead of you. You are seeing the same issues Ive had so much is fresh in my mind. Someone like Peter L. is the true expert.
and yes Im also finding Enfields fasinating, I'll admit Im hooked. :madsmile:
Hey......, hold on SSJ! I'm no expert by any means. It's just that I know a bit more than the average Joe about them that's all. And even then, I only know about the technical, engineering and manufacturing side. Not the historical stuff
If i had correcly understood what you mean. ssj, you want to use a no.5 micrometer sight on a No.4 rifle? i just do it withouth any problem. But elevation doesn't match the range written in sight, because no.5 rifle has a shorter barrel and bullet exits the muzzle more slowly. So you could use it on a No.4 but expect a process of trial and errors.
---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------
And ...yes, Sir.Peter knows about enfield more than any other.
As I I pointed out earlier, it is mostly because the No.5 has a shorter sight radius compared to the No.4.Quote:
Originally Posted by bow
I read somewhere[so don`t take it as gospel]that the No4 Mk1 sight, each click was 1/2 in at 100yrds. While the No5 mk1 sight ,each click was 1/3 in at 100. The writer was suggesting that the No5 sight gave a more accurate adjustment for service rifle shooting. I have never tried this and have no idea what it would do to the scale at longer distances!
As I understand it, the CLOSEST that you will get the click adjustment on a Mk1 sight is 1 MoA or approximately 1click = 1" at 100 yards. BUT, I must say that this is only a good ready reckoner type of theory.
To test it yourself and to see how close (?) this ready reckoner guide is, count the clicks from 2 to 10 on the No32 Mk2 or 3 sight - and it'll be 54. Now count the clicks on a No4 Mk1 backsight from 2 to 10 and it'll be approx 56 or 57 from memory........... Same bullet, same rifle..... There it is approx 1 minute of angle.
Not a lot of people know that....... But they do now!
+1 for the "1 minute" clicks, Peter
My thoughts are that the adjustment "capability" for the 800 yard and 1300 yard sights depends upon how much the sight leaf is actually moved per click, and the sight radius of the particular rifle it is fitted to.
Given that the thread pitch of the adjusting screw on both sights is different, the leaf moves a different amount for each click (.008" for the 1300 yd sight, .00425" for the 800 yd sight)
The No 4 rifle with a sight radius of 28.74", has therefore "1 minute" clicks with its standard 1300 yd sight.
The No 5 rifle with a sight radius of 23.15", has "2/3" minute clicks with the 800 yd sight.
The No 4 rifle, fitted with the 800 yard sight, has not quite "1/2 minute" clicks.
These figures are got by using the following formula, using 3600 inches (100 yards) as the range.
[Range (inches) X change in sight elevation (inches)] / sight radius (inches) = variation on target (inches)
So, in theory at least, I believe that it can be shown that fitting a No 5 sight to a No4 rifle will give finer sight adjustments. The down side is that the actual marked range graduations are no longer much use, but then again they aren't much use on a 1300 yd sight either unless your ammo matches Mk7 ball ballistics.
I didnt go to math school,so I wont do the math but,could a person that handloads correct the differences in sights by changing bullet weight and velocity?
I could be wrong Max, but I have seen and fixed about a zillion No4's and 5's - but surely, the actual SCREW, adjustment on the Mk1 No4 sight and the Mk1 No5 sight are the same - as is the round matching cursor slide nut. From memory, I seem to recall that there WERE different types of No5 screws but only in that the thread was only partially rolled down the shaft........
It's been nearly 30 years since I've owned a genuine No 5 rifle, all I can say is that the measurements which I've quoted are from sights I have on hand now; whether these were ever part of the UK MOD system I do not know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The 800 yards sight which I measured was one which I got off e-bay from the UK. It is in as-new condition, marked with a "P" and part no CR 318. The adjustment screw on this sight has a diameter of .140", and the thread is not rolled the full length of the screw. The 1300 yard sight has a screw diameter of .110"; it is not easy to measure on the assembled sight, but the 800 yard one is noticeably thicker. The leaf on my 800 yard sight moves half the amount of the 1300 yard leaf for the same number of clicks...
It could well be that this shiny new sight is a modern repro, so I went and dug out an 800 yard sight I bought 25 years ago, fitted on a No 4 Mk1/2. This one is marked with a "B" and broad arrow arrow stamp, with no "CR" number. The older sight has the same adjustments as the new one, so I'm still convinced that the 800 yard sight will give finer adjustments.
Can't dispute what you've got in front of you Max except to say 'well, I'll be jiggered.........' At least I was partially right in that some No5 screws are only rolled half way down and on the No4, each click is approx 1MoA.
I'll look in the tech library and see what the score is
Added later...
Querie solved. Who has the up to date No5 rifle parts list including amendment No4? Can't see the date but the front cover will be annoted WO-3111. Amendment No4 will be shortly after Amendment No3 dated May 1953. New page 7 (plus loads of other new pages that include the Grenade projector (an extremely rare item if eve there was!), the genade sight that was the same as the No4 and the shoulder pad and the now obsolescent short-thread screw and nut discussed above This amendment also shows the two screw bayonet grips and the now obsolescent Mk2 backsight with the usual WSE annotation.
My 40-BWS No5 has the No4 fully threaded screw/nut backsight
One thing's for sure, when discussing Lee Enfields, a seemingly simple question can often come up with some interesting findings.
I will see if I can go back and edit my previous posts, to clarify that my data may not apply to all 800 yard sights.
The sight I got on e-bay will have a lot of friends around the world, the vendor was offering them in job-lots of up to 5 or 12; with the occasional whole box on offer. If it is one of an obsolete pattern, and had been sitting unissued in store somewhere, that would help explain why it looks so shiny and new.
At least on these two examples (original sights), there appears to be a difference in screw diameter and pitch. Given the slightly coarser thread on the 800-yard sight, the "click value" would be some 10% greater than the 1300-yard sight if both were mounted on rifles with the same sight radius - except for the fact that the 1300-yard elevation screw is double-threaded, giving it an effective pitch approximately double that of the single-thread 800-yard screw.
On measuring the two sights shown, each click of the No.4's sight moves the slide .008" - vs. .0043" on the No.5's sight. Consequently, the 1300-yard sight gives very close to 1.0 MOA per click with the No.4 rifle's 28" sight radius while the 800-yard sight has a click value of ~0.66 MOA with the No.5's 23" sight radius and would yield ~0.55 MOA on a No.4 rifle. (Pretty much what Maxwell Smart reports in post #17 on this thread.)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2943p13-1.jpg
Ah, but the early '10 thread' sight assembly is not OBSOLETE, just obsolescent, so in theory, like Mk1 & 2 Bren barrels, you could find them coming through Ordnance stockpiles for absolutely years afterwards. It simple means that the factories have stopped producing the screws and nuts and thereafter, when stocks exhausted (hence the WSE annotation) you simply use the more readily available No4 parts.
Interesting thread which shows that while I knew that there were two TYPES of screw, hadn't digested the Technical spec in the EMER to understand that they were slightly different threads.. I wonder why they were different? It made absolutely no difference to the sight....... The crunchie still would it up so that it read 4 whatever the thread! Maybe that's why they standardised them