Gearing up to shoot my carbines again and have some questions.....

As some of you may know, last winter I cleaned up the two carbines I have and a lot of you helped me with some things. Especially the sizes of springs and all that. There were a couple of other issues that I got fixed too thanks to your help. A sticky flip safety on the inland was one. And imarangemaster sent me a bolt for the stock that helped because mine was all stripped.

So, I thank you guys TONS!!!!

I want to take mine and shoot them but I also want to make sure they are safe. My kids are starting to shoot now and they might want to try one out.

So, I do have an older ex marine gunsmith I could take them to. Or, I was thinking I could get my own headspace gauge. I have shot them before and they seem fine, but I am just wanting to exercise some due dilligence. I didn't get mine from the CMP.

Would the headspace be basically the most critical for safety? And if so, what gauge do you all recommend? Can I just buy a no go and see if they close on it or not?

Should I bite the bullet and get Kuhnhousens (however you spell it) book and does he go through this?

Is this what I should get? I'm assuming yes. Half way down the page is the .30 carbine.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod40876.aspx


Also, I have two mags that I have springs that are 5-1/4". Or is it 5-3/4". Whatever the "right" length is, I have two of them. Is it 5-3/4"? BUT, I have several other mags with worn out springs and for some reason I had a hard time finding mag springs when I looked over the winter. Anybody have a good source for them?


Thank you all again for your input and help. I really appreciate it.

standard products
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

inland
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

Nice carbines, ABPOS! The CMP technical forum has very goof instructions on how to use headspace gauges, though if I remember correctly, they use 30-06 as an example. As for mag springs, Wolffe Springs has replacements. Good luck.

If you have been shooting your carbines last fall or so and have not had problems with your carbines then you will not have any issue with head space now. Head space problems do not suddenly appear they happen slowly but you will notice problems before hand. One of the easiest ways is to check the primer on a fired case. If it looks normal and flush with the bottom of the case then your OK but if the primer is starting to back out of the pocket then you should check the head space. Many times a new bolt will take case of the head space problem.

Disassemble the bolt and reinstall it in the carbine. Put some masking tape on the base of a cartridge and see if the bolt closes easily. Although this is not a definative test, a bolt that closes easily is an indication that the HS needs to be checked. If the bolt does not close easily or simply doesn't close completely, I wouldn't worry.

There's one hang up I have, I don't have a bolt disassembly tool any longer. I don't know what happened to it. The thing broke. I heard you can get replacement parts for them.

When you use a gauge, do you need to break the bolt down? Anybody got a good way of doing it without the tool? And without a vice?

I have shot them in the past. But I've never got them to run 100%. Although I don't think it's indicative of being unsafe. They just jammed regularly. Stovepipes, etc.

How has the availability of ammo been? I haven't really checked. I have 4 boxes and that's it. Booohooooo.

But I'm just trying to cross my T's and dot my I's if my kids shoot them. For some reason I'm really nervous about it. One thing that makes me nervous is that the way the bolt fits into the recesses on my standard products is so much more sloppier than the inland. Like the distance between the bolt and the receiver. The inland is nice and uniform and close and the standard is sort of, well a little more, not uniform. I guess I always wonder if it is out of spec. Plus the standard products receiver has been drilled and tapped. And I guess that always makes me wonder if it could fail or crack or something. But I could just not let them shoot that one and only shoot the inland.

Anybody know off the top of their heads what the paratroopers serial number ranges are? This inland is 269,XXX. Seems like a low number.

thank you imarangemaster. They are nice. Especially that inland. That sling is WWII also. At least from what I learned on here I think it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

When you use a gauge, do you need to break the bolt down? Anybody got a good way of doing it without the tool? And without a vice?

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The Forster brand headspace gages do not require you to disassemble the bolt. Just remove the slide and the trigger housing from the receiver, put the gage in the chamber and slide the bolt GENTLY forward against the gage. If it is a 'go' gage the bolt should rotate closed without resistance. If it is a 'Field' gage the bolt should not rotate into battery. There really isn't much use in the 'no-go' gage except to tell if your headspace is within the factory new specification. As long as it closes on 'go' and won't close on 'field' you are golden and, all other things being sound and right, it is safe to shoot with proper ammunition. Make sure the chamber is clean and DO NOT try to force the bolt forward into battery - you can damage the gage and/or the chamber throat.

Added: When checking headspace, also make sure the bolt face is clean and lightly oiled.

Re your bolt disassembly tool, I assume it was the pawl (flat thing that rotates) tip that broke on your tool since that is the weak link in that tool. You can buy a brand new USGI replacement pawl on e-bay right now for $12.00 shipped. You can't beat that with the tools going for about $50 min.

Hope this helps you out. Good luck and good shooting. ChipS

If your getting stove pipes its not a head space problem. Most likely an extractor problem or a recoil spring being too weak. Make sure the extractor is clean and no build up under the lip of the extractor and that they are not chipped or broken. If clean and OK then lube the extractor plunger and spring. A bit of grease on any surface something slides on along with a clean chamber. Make sure the recoil springs are about 10 and 1/4 inches long. If not and they are short replace them.

ABPOS, IM me. I'll lend you my bolt tool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

Should I bite the bullet and get Kuhnhousens (however you spell it) book and does he go through this?

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Yes and Yes.
Kuhnhausen's book is valuable for the general learning effect as to how the carbine functions, so that if you have problems, you also have a better idea of the likely cause. Also dimensions of critical parts, to check if something is worn to the point of uselessness. And for the detailed explanation of safety aspects, such as slam-fire and out-of-battery fire.

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

If your getting stove pipes its not a head space problem.

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I can confirm that from personal experience. The extractor was chipped on my carbine. Replacing it cured the fault.

Well almost.

Something was amiss that I have not seen mentioned elsewhere. The stock was warped to the extent that the operating rod was rubbing on the wood. The resulting braking effect was also preventing a reliable bolt closure. So remove the barrelled system and look for rubbing marks on the wood, and if there are any, make the necessary corrections.

I finally bought a Field and Go just to see how my carbines looked. As mentioned, you do not need to disassemble the bolt and they work perfectly. I was surprise by how far from closing on a field my guns displayed. All are fresh and have a lot of life left in them. The stovepiping and poor operation is almost always what Bruce said, a weak recoil or slide spring. This is the only Wolf spring that I would use and using one solved all problems in my CMP SG NPM. Beyond that, the Wolf spring kits are just a bag of industrial springs that happen to closely match the original pieces. I could get NONE to fit or work beyond the slide spring. Also, the carbine does not require stronger springs, just good springs. With this in mind, I would seek a new spring from Ray Metka or Orion 7 and save the money you would have spent buying Wolf springs. If you shoot reloads, pay attention to OAL as a slightly too long cartridge can drag at the bullet tip on the inside of the magazine and cause feeding problems.

Gauge....not guage

Real good info on Wolf springs Dave.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

Gauge....not guage

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Yes.....'gauge'. What was I thinking?

FWIW, I wasn't wanting to headspace BECAUSE I had FTF's. I realize those are separate issues. I was just wanting to make sure they are safe before I shoot again and especially if my kids shoot them.

I did get some orion7 springs for mine over the winter and installed them and they were the right length. Unlike the stupid fulton one's I bought when I first got the carbines. I didn't have enough rounds through either carbine for them to be overly worn and they were both under 10". I figured fulton would be gtg, but whatever.

sorry if I spelled gauge wrong.

Thanks for the offer imarangemaster. Let me hold off until I either decide to take them to that gunsmith guy or do it myself. You've been so helpful with this stuff.

The note on my post at the bottom was correcting my OWN mispelling of gauge, certainly not aimed at any of you other poor spellers. Besides, I think that several versions of gage, gauge etc. are correct.

I might have to look up the forster gauges. How much are they?

About $110 for all three plus shipping and tax. Most of the time, they are out of stock.
Go 1.290"
No-Go 1.296"
Field 1.299" Don't shoot it if over this.
GI field 1.302"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

I might have to look up the forster gauges. How much are they?

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Headspace Gauge Field 30 Carbine HG0030F | eBay

Here ya' go. $27.90 apiece and he sells all three on e-bay. Again, I recommend you get 'go' and 'field'. The 'No go' is kind of gilding the lilly unless you are finish reaming a short chamber. Shipping is quoted $5.00 but if I recall this guy is a pretty straight shooter and I'll bet he will discount the postage on two gauges purchased if you ask. HTH

Ha. I just read the bottom of the ebay ad. $5.00 flat rate shipping no matter how many gauges you buy. Not bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

The note on my post at the bottom was correcting my OWN mispelling of gauge, certainly not aimed at any of you other poor spellers. Besides, I think that several versions of gage, gauge etc. are correct.

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I had to ask my wife. She is a retired ex secretary. Opps, they are now called associated staff. Guess that saves the boss buying a present when secretary days comes around.

gauge Google


gage Gage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChipS

Headspace Gauge Field 30 Carbine HG0030F | eBay

Here ya' go. $27.90 apiece and he sells all three on e-bay. Again, I recommend you get 'go' and 'field'. The 'No go' is kind of gilding the lilly unless you are finish reaming a short chamber. Shipping is quoted $5.00 but if I recall this guy is a pretty straight shooter and I'll bet he will discount the postage on two gauges purchased if you ask. HTH

Ha. I just read the bottom of the ebay ad. $5.00 flat rate shipping no matter how many gauges you buy. Not bad.

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Darn, midway just has no-go right now in stock. I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Do you mean it's likely to close on it but still be safe to fire? That's only .03" difference.

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 PM ----------

Oh wait, brownells has a field in stock. Hmmmmm.....

You use the GO gauge to make sure there is ENOUGH headspace and the Field to see if the weapon has stretched or worn beyond what is safe. You want it to close on a go and NOT close on a field. The most unsafe condition in a carbine is not excessive headspace, it is too little headspace. Also remove the slide/spring and manually close the bolt on the gauge with little pressure. The Forster gauges do not require removing bolt parts.

Thank you. That helps a lot!!!

Fulton has the three of them for 99 bucks. I'm not sure I want to drop that right now. So.... I see what you're saying about excessive pressure. But my thinking is if they have been shot a lot, there's more chance of it having a long headspace. But I guess that's probably not the big of a deal with a .30 carbine. Or would it be? I guess I was thinking it could create some gasses escaping out and being an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

The most unsafe condition in a carbine is not excessive headspace, it is too little headspace.

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Well said Dave, let's hear it again!

The most unsafe condition in a carbine is not excessive headspace, it is too little headspace.

Kuhnhausen's book "The U.S: .30 Caliber Gas Operated Carbines", Vol. 3 has a detailed explanation of safety aspects starting around P.29.

Simply put, excessive headspace is bad for brass if you are reloading. I have fired rifles with a headspace up to 1/20".*** The only result was that the case shoulders were noticeably shifted forwards, and ignition was irregular, presumably only happening at all because the case was being held back by the extractor. Not that I am recommending this situation, but the danger with
too little headspace - maybe even a negative head clearance - is that it may provoke a slam-fire, which is far more dangerous than a stretched case!

BTW, protruding primers have the same effect. Rather set primers a couple of thou" below the base level than risk any protrusion.

Another cause of this hazard can be a misguided desire to set the bullet as close as possible to the transition cone, a.k.a. lead or leade. I cringe to read of people claiming they set the bullets to be 0.003" or less off the lands. Have they ever heard of tolerances, which exist in both bullet ogives and their reloading equipment? If a bullet is seated too long in the case, then the cartridge is effectively "headspacing" on the bullet!

I wish that more attention would be paid to such aspects, rather than placing a blind faith in gauges, which are NOT a safety guarantee.

***On my own rifles I check such matters before the first firing. In this case, the rifle was handed to me for a test firing at the range, by someone who I would regard as very knowledgeable. Motto: do not trust anything or anyone when it comes to your personal safety!

And since this post is, of course, basic, even superficial, read Kuhnhausen on the M1.:thup:

or Andy's in Petaluma where I grew up. He was a real genuine gunsmith and could do anything (usually while you waited). Any other "gunsmiths" I've met I wouldn't let wash my car. Yet people always say "take it to a gunsmith". Most have absolutely no idea about this blow up issue with carbines. The government forced 100% ammo case checks at the ammo plants because they were having so many failures from slam fires. The reason that this is so important is the carbine DOES stretch cases and you could gauge a gun all you want and an overly long case could blow it up. So if you reload, checking case length is a whole lot more important than headspace.

Good knowledge coming here.

I always am irritated when people on the internet exclaim, "Just take it to a gunsmith". You never know what people know. The last gunsmith I talked to didn't seem to know crap from crapola (to paraphrase a term that came somewhere in my family). And some might know a lot about a certain gun, but absolutely nothing about another type. I find it all very discouraging. I would imagine the ones that DO know what they're doing are so busy they don't have time to talk to you anyways. Anyways........ The one gentleman I was thinking about taking my carbines to didn't seem to know about the proper timing on a Colt Detective special. Nor did he seem to want to touch my HiPower with a 10' pole. But supposedly he knows Smith revolvers and 1911's but I've never had him work on either of those. So I'm just not sure about how much he knows about Carbines. But he's an Ex Marine armorer and I think a Korean war vet, so he probably knows his way around a Carbine. Yet I still have my reservations. Not to be disrespectful.

our armorer sat around blown out on Darvons all day. He had jars of them. He had no problem handing you magazines that had corroded ammo, sand, sticks and twigs in them and smiling as he did it. I soon got my own supply of ammo, mags and pistols.

But I guess he could be a gunsmith now?

Yikes! And I don't even know what Darvins is.

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Originally Posted by ABPOS

Yikes! And I don't even know what Darvins is.

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Darvon was a popular pain killer. It was roughly the equivalent of Vicodin today. It had a round pellet of pain killer surrounded by Tylenol powder in a capsule. The pellets were VERY popular, and some people ground them up, cooked them in a spoon of water, and injected them like heroin. Later, they came out with "Darvacet" which mixed the pellet with the Tylenol in a hard caplet, to limit abuse

Then drink half a bottle of Terpin hydrate.
Darvon/Darvocet, got banned Nov 2010 because they contained propoxyphene -- a safety-plagued painkiller from the 1950s. There's a hint they were bad.

Darvon was a leading killer of people in this country. When taken with alcohol, the effects were much stronger. I remember trying on my old uniform maybe 20 years after the war. You guessed it.....in the pocket were two Darvons.

:move eek::yikes:

Northridge has bolt tools a little cheaper than near a "C" note, $74.95:

Northridge International Inc. / M1 CARBINE BOLT DISASSEMBLY/ASSEMBLY TOOL NEW `GI`.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stickhauler

tools a little cheaper than near a "C" note, $74.95:

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I have dismantled a carbine bolt assembly without the tool. A nerve-wracking business. :thdown:

You have to go very carefully indeed to avoid bits flying around the workshop into spaces where you will never find them again. And those bits soon add up to a noticeable expense! Reassembling was even worse, to get the little "pimple" stud clicked into position. In sheer exasperation, not having three hands with titanium fingers, I made up a jig of my own.

I strongly recommend getting the proper tool if you reckon you are likely to dismantle the bolt more than once in your lifetime.:thup:

Even with a tool, I disassemble the bolt in a gallon size baggie! You can sometimes find tools on Ebay for about $50

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Even with a tool, I disassemble the bolt in a gallon size baggie!

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Me, too. Inside a ziploc!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Even with a tool, I disassemble the bolt in a gallon size baggie! You can sometimes find tools on Ebay for about $50

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Aaah, good tip.

I've done the Garand and M1A bolt with no tool, but never the carbine. Forget it.