Question/ discussion about 03's in combat.....

Sorry if this has been done to death, but I figured what the hay anyways.

I've been back into researching my Grandpa's service and found out some more things from some different sources. And of course one thing I would love to know is what he might have carried. In which I have no clue as I don't have any pics of him in combat or even with a rifle in his hand. My Grandma has a few pictures of him up at Camp McCoy during training, but he didn't have a rifle in his hands.

Anyways......

On the company report I saw the list of when he was KIA and it had his MOS next to him. It was (745). Which is "Squad Leader". And some others that might know suggested that a Sgt that was a 745 was typically an assistant Squad leader to a staff sergeant Squad leader. And then one re enacting website said an assistant squad leader typically carried an 03 with a grenade launcher attachment. So if a squad ran up against a heavy weapon it needed to defeat, they would have means. This was obviously one interpretation but it seems it might have some merit. I many times see 03's in pictures, even with a bunch of guys having Garands in the same pic. There are two pics in the Garand forum right now that show this.

And the pictures are many times pics of the guys in Combat. Not just training pics.

So, do you think there is some merit to this? I'm assuming my Grandpa probably handled most of the small arms at one time another, but I don't know really what. I do know that he had Ranger training in Ireland and the other members of that division said if he had Ranger training in Ireland, it most likely was a continuation from the states. So... He was ranger trained, and he was a 745 at the time of his death. July 26th 1944. In France near St. George D'Elle at the onset of Operation Cobra. From what I can tell he was probably killed on the 25th but not official until the 26th.

Sgt James Lafate Rea 2ID, 23rd IR, E Company. I know some of you have seen me post this before, but of course I'm proud to do it again.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

Sounds reasonable enough. Researching ancestors can be fun, but aggravating at times. I spent a lot of time researching my grandfather (WWI, 167th Inf), only to discover the most information was at his old local courthouse (copy of discharge papers). Anyone who researches my military records is going to go nuts. I spent most of my time in the mountains, but my records don't even mention it. Most of my photos are from the mountains.

Jim

Well thank you for serving!! In the mountains and out of the mountains. :)

That must be interesting to look into WWI History. This Grandpa's Mom, my Great Grandma, was married to someone who served in WWI. According to my sister. She was working on Ancestry.com. What's not clear is if it was My Grandpa's father or not. (By blood) I don't think it was though.

Abpos, Did you Google search on his unit number? I was able to find a webpage on my uncle's unit (515th Field Artillery Battalion). It had hundreds of pictures. I really couldn't find one of him but got a real feel for how it was as they moved across France and into Germany. Salt Flat

My Uncle, Dee, was a Sgt/Staff Sgt in Italy in WWII. He saw piles of tough combat and was a Platoon Leader most of his tiime. Walked up Italy and ended the war near the Swiss border. LONG walk. Not sure about your Grand Dad, likely he was a Platoon Leader as well. I'm sorry he didn't make it back I'm sure he was missed for years and years.

Personally, if he was a squad leader, I believe he carried an M1 Garand.

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Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

Personally, if he was a squad leader, I believe he carried an M1 Garand.

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I'm sure that is very likely. But not necessarily definitive. hehehe.

At that point in the war maybe even a carbine. Looking up his unit sounds like the best thing to do. I looked up my uncle's unit and found copies of the unit log book with hand written pages by my uncle. Cool stuff! Contact members of the unit site. Someone may have known him, been his best friend. When I did one of the WWII vets had pictures of him that he passed on to me. You never know until you ask.

Possibly a carbine, but definitely not a M1903/03A3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

Possibly a carbine, but definitely not a M1903/03A3.

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I'm curious as to why you say that with such "definitiveness". (not really a word, hehehe, I don't think) There is a couple of famous pictures of the 2nd ID guys coming up the beach and there are definitely 03's being carried. If you need me to, I think I can dig up the right picture. Possibly.

Another thing is I think it is very likely that he carried one of those in training. Or I think a possibility. The 2nd ID was around since WWI, and I think the 23rd IR was too. If my memory serves me correct. It's possible they were all up to date with Garand's by 42. But maybe not. But maybe you know more about the division than I do. I don't say that disrespectfully. I mean it's possible that you really do. I don't know your background. That's why I'm asking why you make such a definitive statement about it, given the data I've collected.

http://42054697.nhd.weebly.com/2nd-i...-division.html

It's that picture there. I have seen larger views of that picture. I think I might even have one on my computer somewhere. And there is an 03 or two in those first few guys.

That photo was featured on the Garand photo of the day a few months ago. It was discussed then about the 1903 rifles.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E2523EW-1.jpg

Here's a better pic of it.


Also, that didn't really answer my question to RicktheLibrarian. This is not the only evidence that there were 03's in combat. I'm curious about what they had to say in that thread a couple of months ago. I might have even been in on that one. I forget.

I would wonder why you'd need an 03 for Grenade launching when there were Grenade Launchers for the Garand. Was there any upsides to the bolt unit? Maybe the loading of the proper ammo would be easier in the 03. Or, they just didn't have enough Garands for everyone.

They did not have an effective grenade launcher for the M1 until nearly the end of the war. I don't remember all the details, but the one they developed earlier in WWII was a pain to use. I have seen several units later in WWII mostly or wholly equipped with M1903s. However, like the picture above, they could have been combat support units, like engineers.

The rear sight of an '03 could be set to fire grenades at " low angle " ( direct fire ) far better than the M1 sight could . Until the M15 sight was available , both rifles used thier slings marked at 30 - 45 - 60 degrees for " high angle " fire and therefore were equal for that use .
Yes , the ammo could be added / changed easier too , and the launcher in WW2 turned the M1 into a manually operated repeater when attached and easily lost when removed.
My own useage gives the nod to the M15 sight if you make your own range chart for all the fine angles you can dial in . The range chart that comes with the M15 really puts a limit on it's effectiveness and is a throw back to the marked sling information. In my limited use of the M15 in low angle fire , I just cannot get my body in the right position to use it well . My left arm blocks the view , and getting it out of the way leads to an awkward , unstable shooting stance. But my arms are shortish and my chest wide , so it may be just my build.
Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

The rear sight of an '03 could be set to fire grenades at " low angle " ( direct fire ) far better than the M1 sight could . Until the M15 sight was available , both rifles used thier slings marked at 30 - 45 - 60 degrees for " high angle " fire and therefore were equal for that use .
Yes , the ammo could be added / changed easier too , and the launcher in WW2 turned the M1 into a manually operated repeater when attached and easily lost when removed.
My own useage gives the nod to the M15 sight if you make your own range chart for all the fine angles you can dial in . The range chart that comes with the M15 really puts a limit on it's effectiveness and is a throw back to the marked sling information. In my limited use of the M15 in low angle fire , I just cannot get my body in the right position to use it well . My left arm blocks the view , and getting it out of the way leads to an awkward , unstable shooting stance. But my arms are shortish and my chest wide , so it may be just my build.
Chris

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Thank you for your service and sharing your experience. That must've been something launching those things.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

They did not have an effective grenade launcher for the M1 until nearly the end of the war. I don't remember all the details, but the one they developed earlier in WWII was a pain to use. I have seen several units later in WWII mostly or wholly equipped with M1903s. However, like the picture above, they could have been combat support units, like engineers.

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OK. Right. So why the statement before about my Grandpa not having an 03 as a possibility? Were assistant Squad leaders tasked for Grenade launching duties or no? Emmagee, can you answer that part of it? Or should I say "Were they Grenadier's". Hopefully you get what I mean.

They had grenade launchers for M1903s but not an effective one for the M1. The usual issuance was a M1903 for grenade launching to the assistant squad leader. That's what the "book" said, but I'm sure it was not "gospel" for all units and situations.

Yeah, I got no arguments about that. From everything I read it doesn't always seem to have a rhyme or reason. And sometimes it seems as though the GI himself had a choice in the matter. Which I find interesting.

A book I just finished called "In Death's Dark Shadow", by Cleve Barkley. He wrote this book about his Dad. And his Dad related much of the info to him. Also, he talked to other GI's his Dad served with, to confirm actions etc. And then also used military records. But anyways... His Dad was a "Scout" in the 38th IR, 2nd ID. K Company I think it was. But in Normandy he said he carried a Thompson. He was always first over the hedgerow and that weapon was best for suppressing the Germans on the other side of the hedgerows. As it was all relatively close quarters. He was wounded the same day my Grandfather died. July 26th. But recuperated and made it back to his unit when they reached Germany and a little bit before the Bulge. But he specifically said that his Dad carried a Garand in the more open spaces because it was a better weapon for the terrain. I don't know if he specifically said he chose it. Or his squad leader told him to carry that because of the terrain or what. But the fact is, the claim is he went from one weapon to another, in combat. Which kind of seems interesting and not necessarily by the "book". I would doubt the TOandE says, give a scout a Thompson in "Normandy" and then give him a Garand in Germany.

Anyways.... I still find it a plausible possibility that my Grandfather had an 03 in combat because of the Grenade launching duties sometimes fell to the Assistant Squad leaders. However, as mentioned above, I'm not sure I would want that weapon trying to run from one hedgerow to another. But then again..... I wouldn't know anything about combat. I also agree with you that a carbine would be another plausible possibility. Heck, even a Thompson would be. Maybe. Although it seems like earlier in the war they weren't as prevalent. But I could be all wet about that too. I guess that's kind of the point. I'll never know. And I guess it really doesn't matter. It just would be nice to know.

I have to make a correction. I had the MOS wrong. 745 is I think just a rifleman. And that number is next to a lot of the Privates on the lists of the KIA. My Grandpa's number was 653 at the date of his death. Oooops. Sorry to confuse anyone. I'm pretty sure 653 is a squad leader though.

After the first battle , there were a lot of spares of everything scattered around . If it was felt to increase the survival chances of the squad or individual , and not hurt anything in the opinion of the local officers , it was allowed . This is how many squads that had a TOE of one BAR had three. Also , weapon switching between buddies for special ops was common ( Steve borrowing Tom's Thompson for a night patrol , for example ) . Many times a man's assigned weapon was lost or damaged , and he just picked up another and carried on.
ABPOS , thanks , but I never served. Did have a ton of uncles around after the war from both sides of the family that served in every theater and branch in WW2 . They all made it back home , thanks in no small part to the person who taught them how to shoot when they were growing up , at least on one side of the family. The same person who taught me ....my mom.
Chris

Thank you for your reply. Your Mom did you all good. For sure. What a special person.