P17 hits high(no worries) and left (big worry)

Was at the range today and shot my P17 for the first time. I was shooting 180 gr Remington store bought rounds to function test her and to get an idea of where I was hitting. At 50 yds I was 4" high and 3" left. I drifted the front sight and repeated. 3 more shots in the same spot. I really drifted it about 1/16" and repeated with same results. For shits and giggles I drifted it 1/8" and hit in the same spot again. Is there something I am missing or forgetting to look at. I mean the groups were 1.5"x1.5" and I was actually happy with that, but no matter what I do to the front sight it hits in the same spot.
Other data would be shooting off a rest and had shot my No1Mk111* to 1" groups at 50 yards and had sighted in my two .22's to nice tight little groups. I had the range officer watch to see if I was flintching and he said no.
Any ideas would be most helpful.
Thanks,
jesse

Is the barrel hard up against part of the wood? Is the barrel bent? I had an M1 that shot like that and it was bent way back where it's thickest in the barrel. I had to make up a straightness gauge and bend it back with a hydraulic press. Maybe?? Is there a ring in the last inch of barrel?

Any chance you centered the two outer front posts in your sight alignment? A few weeks ago I zeroed mine for the first time. I had to really think about the sights after drifting the front way left.

I have shot Garands, No4's, and AR's so I think the sighting wouldn't be a problem...but maybe it was. Might have been frustrated and thought I had a good sight picture.
I will take her apart and look for any bends or contact with the wood. I would think that if the wood is touching I should carefully sand it down.

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Originally Posted by jessehh

I would think that if the wood is touching I should carefully sand it down.

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Maybe you need this?

Attachment 45479

"Patrick's Patent Channel Router" :madsmile:

Actually, just a Stanley round rasp blade jammed onto a slice of wood of your choice. Vary the thickness of the slice to vary the radius of the blade. The cheapest channel router you can get and, because of its length, very effective for removing high spots without going to the other extreme and producing depressions. Avoids the rounding off of the channel top edges that is likely to occur with sanding. Get yours now!

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Originally Posted by jessehh

I really drifted it about 1/16" and repeated with same results. For shits and giggles I drifted it 1/8" and hit in the same spot again. Is there something I am missing or forgetting to look at. I mean the groups were 1.5"x1.5" and I was actually happy with that, but no matter what I do to the front sight it hits in the same spot.

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A total drift of 3/16 and a sight radius of 32" (check that) shifts the POA by about 9" (relative to the barrel center line) at 50 yards. If the POI didn't move, then I agree with hi-revr that you may have been aiming with the foresight protector ear instead of the foresight blade. Especially as the grouping was OK.

Apart from that, if the rifle is not centered on the target with the blade within about 1/16 of the barrel center line, then I would certainly check for barrel distortion, channel contact etc. But since the grouping is fine, the trouble will be something curable.

Thanks for the input guys, I think I will strip her down in the morning and see if I can find any contact points.

Well I took her apart and found that the barrel was touching up near the front of the stock. I took the wood down until I could pass two paper thicknesses down the barrel without touching ( do I need to do more?). When fully assembled the end of the barrel has slight play in all directions. I hope this fixes my problem. I put the front sight back in it's original position and will repeat sighting in again. Thanks for the help guys.

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Originally Posted by jessehh

I took the wood down until I could pass two paper thicknesses down the barrel without touching ( do I need to do more?).

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That could (should?) be sufficient. Depends on the paper, of course! Give it a try!

Before you shoot though...clean the bore and check the last two inches at the muzzle for a ring. I had a Krag that would group perfectly at 100,(saucer size) but 3 ft to 10 oclock. I found a small bulge at the front sight base. Sends the bullet off like magic...you did look to check for no bend? They can be small...

I did look for a bend. I did it by looking down the bore and looking down the length of the barrel like I did when I shot aluminum arrows and didn't see anything obvious. I didn't see a bulge but I admit that if it was small I could miss. would it stand out or is it a "trained eye" sort of thing? The bore does look real shiney and clean though. When I picked it up I cleaned the bore with lead and copper solvent and then cleaned until patches were clean. I would think a bulge would stand out right?

From the inside a ring or bulge looks like a shadow. You need a good clean oiled bore to see it well. You have to look from a bit of a distance back...12 inch...and look through the whole thing.

I just have a bit of a hard time believing anyone would shoot using the sight protective ears for a foresight...I have read about cases of it though. It's just that the ears are SO different from the front sight blade...you'll get it shooting though. Maybe it was just the wood bearing...

I would also suggest that you try it will the standard 150 gr. bullet. Point of impact can be quite different from the 180 gr. The sights are regulated to be dead on at 300 yards if I remember right.

I looked at the barrel again and can't see any shadows. So I am hoping it was the wood. Only problem is it will be 3 weeks before I can get back to the range.
I will find some 150 grain and give that a try. I had 40 rds of 180 given to me 2 years ago and didn't own a 30.06.

You simply must get back to us with the end result...we'd love to know.

After all you guys have done, it would be the least I could do.

The beding of the rifle would have nothing to due with the point of impact not changing with sight adjustment. As has been said , something has to be happening to negate the changes you're making to the blade , such as using the ear as a blade. There is a couple of other things that it could be.
When I first bought my M1A1 Thompson , I took her out with the local class 3 dealer doing the sale. I shot her off the bench in semi at a target 50 yds away . He was watching through a scope. He said that elevation was good , but I was off at 9'Oclock. Gave her a little Kentucky windage and he said " same hole " . Gave more , same results. After several trys , I was aiming almost off the paper , but still getting " same hole ". I finally looked to see if I could see what was wrong , and noticed the shark fin front sight was no longer vertical . It was slipping over . I reached up and was able to give it a few twists and hand it to the dealer. The ring where it pressed on cracked during pressing.
See if your blade tower is verticle . If not , see if it's the sight key ( broken or missing ) or if your bbl has rotated ( not tight , though I think the extractor cut would have limited unnoticed movement ) .
Chris

wow....how bout this.
have the barrel indexed correctly.. problem solved.. look at the bottom of the action wear the barrel meets the receiver..youll see a couple lines..on on the barrel and one on the receiver. they should be dead on...
post a pic...id bet they are off a bit.

Here is the picture you requested.
So it looks a thousand or two off, canting the sight over left by a degree. Wouldn't my corrections be to the right then?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I just have a bit of a hard time believing anyone would shoot using the sight protective ears for a foresight...I have read about cases of it though.

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Well try believing me, because I've done it :o (with the Boer Mauser carbine, not an M1917). It is not a fairy tale.

---------- Post added at 05:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by jessehh

So it looks a thousand or two off, canting the sight over left by a degree. Wouldn't my corrections be to the right then?

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The original problem was that shifting the blade by 3/16" failed to shift the POI noticeably at 50 yards. The observed discrepancy of the witness marks cannot explain that observation. (The mismatch of the witness marks may be because the original barrel was removed and replaced.)
And the amount of tilt (if any) is no more than the variation that might be produced by a shooter.

Come on guys! Let's get real! Try drawing a vertical line 1/2" long (and even that is taller than a foresight blade) on a smooth vertical surface, without using a spirit level, and then check it afterwards with a level - which will be difficult for such a short line. If you get it right within 1 degree, you can congratulate yourself.

And none of this explains the failure to shift the POI by shifting the foresight blade.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Well try believing me, because I've done it

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Fair enough. I just though an M 1917 has a bold enough sight protector...well...

I was also surprised!

But that was with the Mauser carbine, which has rather fine protector ears very close to the blade. I agree that on an M1917 the ears are much more bulky. Furthermore, the offset is so large (relative to the foresight blade) that I would expect the shots to be off the target in such a case, not just 4" off center, as reported.

Been there and tried to do that, amazing how much you can miss when you concentrate.

Also keep in mind that 50 yds takes a LOT of adjustment, but at 100 it takes a small amount (though 1/16 is a lot).

I don't buy the 150s being the bullet for the 30-06. If you read the history close enough the 175 is the sweet spot. Yes 150s can be very accurate, but the best chances are the 175s.

Contrary to the reports, what was used in at least Europe in WWII was the 175s. That was the machine gun loading for maximum range and accuracy and it proved to work equally well in the 30-06 rifles (all are 1-10 twist though not sure about machine gun). Upshot was the 150s were used stateside as it worked for training and the shorter ranges did not see the difference.

You can vary that a bit with non boat tail as you have more bearing surface with flat base but the idea is that the 168-180 was really the ideal for the twist (or so I think for the most likely to work well across a wide range).

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Originally Posted by jessehh

Here is the picture you requested.
So it looks a thousand or two off, canting the sight over left by a degree. Wouldn't my corrections be to the right then?

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look....i was right...sheesh... the barrel needs to be removed, and re indexed correctly.. i do these all the time...wow..KISS.
front sight moved to the left,,,,bullet hits to the right,
rear sight moved left, bullet hits left.
looks like you have a JA barrel as well. do to the light color finish..

I know that with carbines and M1 rifles, the barrels just out of index by the littlest amount will do exactly what the OP is suffering. I spend the greatest amount of assembly time on index...I would never expect this rifle to have been out of whack.

i see it all the time...thats the first thing to check on Military rifles that shoot off to one side or that have the rear sight adjusted all the way right or left..
then.
if its good...check for barrel being bent, or issues with the muzzle ect... KISS easy thing to use.

the one thing to check after index is fixed. is the front sight...iv seen some were the sight was bent in a attempt to fix the sight picture...some so bad it ruined the sight base.
just fixed a 1903A3 that had this issue..after i repaired his index. i had to replace the front sight..
the gunsmith he had work on it, couldnt get the barrel loose, so he just tried to bend the front sight over to get the sight picture right...

you guys know im just teasing you....im just as guilty of over thinking an problem....sometime i have to step back, and look at the simple things...

It's also hard when we guess...don't have it in our hands. Sometimes no pics even.

So technically it's the sight that is out of whack because the barrel has been turned just that bit to far? Looks like she will be a safe queen until I can afford to have that taken care of. So to recap, she shot 3" left and nothing I did to the sight fixed that, was told the barrel should free-float, found and fixed that, told to look at the indexing, found it was off. Could fixing the stock bring it closer or is the indexing issue the only cause? I did pick up the rifle for my meager collection but also to take out and shoot once in a while.

dont shoot the rifle until you have it fixed..
if i did the repair. it would be cheap and fast. it would spend more time in the air then in my hands
the index is the ONLY issue you have...re indexing the barrel correctly will fix this issue.

Local gunsmith said $40 to index the barrel if I bring the barrel/receiver in. Sound about right?

thats a deal, if he can do it right...
careful. sometimes cheap aint the best....good luck id charge about 60.00 more with shipping..and have it done right and fast...keep in mind...i dont fix others smiths screws ups anymore.

He came recommended from the guys at our local indoor range. While explaining the problem he knew what I was talking about...which can not be said of several of the other smiths that I called.
I certainly wasn't going to take it to Gander Mountain where they couldn't even mount a scope and bore sight it. Bought an 870 with slug barrel with free mounting and bore sighting. At 25 yards I wasn't even on a 3'x3' target.

this job isnt rocket science, and is easy with the right tools..
however.. i find it strange that most modern gunsmiths, cant seem to remove and install a barrel on a vintage bolt action rifle...they can however, dress up and paint any flavor of AR15, or bubba custom any type of russian bolt gun into a zombie killer..

You should ask this cat how many 1917 barrels he has removed. Then how many receivers cracked. If his action wrench isn't specifically made to fit these you are taking a big chance.

sometimes...the oh crap lesson,..is the best teacher..
cheap, is good, but sometimes...you get what you pay for.. after while iv learned to just let them learn...
saved 65.00...but now the rifle is abstract art...

A '17 is an odd duck rifle. Very few gunsmiths work on them these days. Not many around and they are old. Chuck did my '17 and did it right when he put on my new GI barrel. You can crack the receiver and then what. If your smith will not guarantee the job pass on him.

I will most certainly ask if he knows what he is doing/has the right tool and if will pay for a new receiver if he cracks it. If "no" is the answer to any of these questions I will ship it to get it fixed.

id doubt anyone would agree to pay for a new receiver if its cracked, on a 95 year old rifle.. it would hard to prove he did the damage...
just that statement...takes me out of this loop...good luck in your ventures/

You have a Model 1917 not a P17.

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Originally Posted by Detmer

You have a Model 1917 not a P17.

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Sorry, we're already past that part.

any updates??? curiuos as to how well and how fast your 40.00 smith job was..

The job is done and the index lines are now perfect. When I was picking it up one of the guys there (don't know if he worked there or was just hanging out) gave me his number and offered $550 for the rifle. I am thinking of giving him a call as I just picked up a P14 this weekend. I do thank all of you for all your help and education though.

But...how does it shoot now?

Sorry but I went to the range today to sight in and round test my new .22. I only had 6 rounds of 30.06 left and shot 2 rounds which hit 3" high and about 1" left. Made a small adjustment and the next two hit 3" up 1" right. Halved my adjustment back and was 3" up and slightly right. If I had more ammo I would have moved back to 100 and fine tuned it and then played with the flip up sight. Thanks again guys.