7.62 NATO No4 barrels

I was offered a couple of ".308" barrels for No4s the other day. The price was not at all silly given the price of any barrels in Oz.

They turned out to be essentially new in their rather tatty brown paper wrappers.

Not wanting to buy a mummified pile of junk, I unrolled the wrapper for a look.

Bores are NICE; 6 groove, RH twist; appears to be 1:12" twist.

External finish is blast / grey parkerize.

There is a tiny proof mark (crown over crossed pennants over an unidentified tiny squiggle), on the Knox form.

Just forward of the Knox Form, the letters " A W " are stamped on the left side in characters about 3mm high.

Breech thread shank is longer than a standard No4: space for a breeching washer?

Front sight base lugs but no bayonet lugs

Any clues as to what I coughed up for?

Are these not Canadian barrels? Did we have any that were not marked with Canadian Arsenals? It sounds like our earlier marking...

Interesting possibility!

The six groove RH twist is a clue, I guess. All they needed to do was ream to .299" / .300", adjust the cutter box on the rifling machine and use the same drive setup as they did for the Bren barrels.

Since you are in OZ my only guess is (or it was a MAB / TSE Engineering, a 303 barrel, they are 6 groove. Someone somewhere commented that they were really 308 barrels so tight which target shooters of 303 like. TSE recently quoted my about $350AU for a new blank barrel (so I assume it needed chambering as the final cost was $950NZD), but I also had someone else comment that the new TSE barrels they have seen are not up to much quality wise. So if it was a good unused 303 target barrel ready chambered etc I'd pay $350AU.....If I had a Fulton's 308 sterling conversion target gun I'd certainly pay that and store it.

I have two of these "AW" marked barrels; they do not clock up even close in any of the No 4 actions I have, so breeching washers would seem to be needed.

I figured that they had some sort of "official' background or had come from UK or Canada. The only people in Oz who put proofs on stuff seem to be Thales / ADI / Lithgow.

Definitely 7.62; dummy rounds and 7.62 headspace gauges won't fit a .303!

Extractor slot is a little wider than .303 type, as well.

Definitely need a breeching washer.

The question now is; where do these fit with the "purists" if I bundle up a bunch of parts and build myself a clone of an L8 for competition work?

Despite having a "real" ordnance produced and proofed barrel, will it be even less Kosher than my old "bitza" No4 Mk2 with its .30" / .308" barrel (chambered for .303 but custom throated for .30 cal 168gn Sierra Matchkings)?

Is .303 service rifle shooting going to wither because nobody can get decent quantities of "real" .303 ammo and thus resort to commercial, boat-tailed bullets that will eat their barrels?

Are the "rule nazis" going to insist that the " club regulations" are more important than getting people on the mound and safely shooting the MATCHES? Great way to make people walk away.

I've had a couple of AX marked barrel (7.62 No4's) with the same long shank that I believe came from Lithgow SAF they were heavy profile. And I had a standard profile No4 7.62 with the long shank that came from Lithgow, and it came unused with a couple of washers, .070" and .004" if I remember correctly. I am pretty sure that was 2 letter marked

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

The question now is; where do these fit with the "purists" if I bundle up a bunch of parts and build myself a clone of an L8 for competition work?

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There are tonnes of full wood 7.62 No4's around, and noone thinks they are fake anything. They are just 7.62 conversions. I've done a a few and they shoot great. My No4Mk2 with the standard profile 7.62 barrel, centre bedded shot like you wouldn't believe, as do all the heavy barrel versions when they are set up well.

SSJ, I can vouch for the quality of TSE barrels, in 303,7.62 and other calibres.
I would not caste dispersions without firsthand experience, it only belittles the individual doing so.
Have a nice day.

I was just having a bit of a snark about "gamesmanship".

Every so often, you run into the odd character on club "committees" who likes to wax obnoxious about the "rules", whils flexing them as much as they can for their own benefit.

It certainly occurs in lots of other fields and is sometimes called "psyching out" your competition. Fair enough at the "big kid's" level, but it tends to put off newcomers who witness it unexplained.

I have shot rifle and pistol at international "Shooting Games" and "Master's Games" (somebody has to take home the wooden spoon), as well as international REAL military matches, (throw in machine-gun matches) and the "games" are definitely not all conducted on the mound!

However, if you are trying to encourage a steady stream of new shooters, it is not productive to play these silly games on the "prospects".

Apart from all that, thanks for the advice, T-Bone!!

Not quite the same meat but I 'adjusted' a 7.62mm No4 barrel muzzle that needed to be breeched in a but further to get anything like CHS. when the foresight block threads overturned by some way.

Just machined the lugs off plus .030" or so down to the end of the overturned lugs. Then machined a knackered .303" No4 muzzle to suit. Put 2x flats on the barrel, sweated the new 'sleeve' in place, aligned on the glass flat plate and nobody could tell the difference after it'd been through the phosphate and paint plant. Even had the bayonet lugs this time.

Still shot like a pig but 7.62 was cheaper than .303!

So, did we end up with a definitive answer as to who made these "A W" barrels - Lithgow or CAL?

Just wondering - do you know what the groove diameter in the 7.62 mm No 4 barrel is? How much under-size from a standard No 4 barrel is this?
reason I ask, is: I note in the UK that No 4 barrels in .303 cal are very scarce, but those chambered to 7.62mm Nato are available.
My question is this: Could the 7.62 barrel be reamed out to take the.303 case, and could the bore cope with a standard .311" ( = .303) bullet?
And, if not, would the neck or full length resizer in a standard reloading die allow a .308 bullet to be seated into a reloaded .303 case, making a rimmed .308?
And, if this conversion was done, would it pass Proof? And would the calibre still be .303?
Just wondering...

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Originally Posted by RobD

Just wondering - do you know what the groove diameter in the 7.62 mm No 4 barrel is? How much under-size from a standard No 4 barrel is this?
reason I ask, is: I note in the UK that No 4 barrels in .303 cal are very scarce, but those chambered to 7.62mm Nato are available.
My question is this: Could the 7.62 barrel be reamed out to take the.303 case, and could the bore cope with a standard .311" ( = .303) bullet?
And, if not, would the neck or full length resizer in a standard reloading die allow a .308 bullet to be seated into a reloaded .303 case, making a rimmed .308?
And, if this conversion was done, would it pass Proof? And would the calibre still be .303?
Just wondering...

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Rob, some good questions and was asked similar last year, the case neck can be resized using a .308 die, so that's not a problem, regarding proof house think something like this you can provide them with the cases etc, as its a wildcat round probably proofed as a .303/.308.

As regards to re chamber its a no go as the 7.62mm/.308 chamber is to fat for a .303 reamer, the solution would be to bore out the 7.62mm chamber and then make an insert in .303 I,m not sure if anyone has done this and if it would be any good?

As regards to the reamer you would need to get a .303 reamer reground on the neck to the same as .308

To be honest the easiest solution is to use the 7.62mm barrel as it is.

I took in a No4 Mk2 barrelled action some time back in 7.62mm (its one of the Belgian barrels that was in a recent thread) I had the woodwork but shelved the idea. Its only due to recent post from thunderbox that I,ve looked at rebuilding it plus I use a lot of downloaded ammo now, and with x amounts of unique powder and a 110 grn round nose .30 bullet produce excellent results.

If you are starting from scratch, it is no big deal to do a ".303" barrel on a ".30" blank. The .003" difference is only a minor quibble, especially as it is a three thou TIGHTNESS, not LOOSENESS.

I have done a couple using slightly "tired" heavy 7.62 target rifle barrels. You know the ones: the driver can't get eight of ten "centres" / "V" bulls two weeks in a row and decides to get a new barrel! The biggest problem is getting one long enough as you have to chop off almost the entire 7.62 chamber to get to fresh meat to support the .303 chamber. If you are building a Carbine or "bush" rifle, no worries, but that 25" plus No. 4 barrel is a squeeze.

If your gun-plumber has a .303 reamer with a removable pilot, all he needs to do is swap in a .299" pilot. Going the whole hog, he can also grind the leade-cutter section of the reamer a little more steeply. That way, The chamber will still accept Mk7 ball, if you can find any, as well as a lot of other projectiles. It might make the bench-resters cringe, but this rifle was never intended to be a bench queen, but a functional "service" rifle. I nailed a very nice red deer with the old girl using the 155 Palma bullet. Mind you the range was VERY short: the silly hat-rack was almost about to walk over me as I hid behind a two-inch diameter sapling. I had been using the Palmas for a training shoot with my son and that was the only ammo to hand as we wandered back down the dry creek bed that afternoon. Heart, lungs and liver were "wrecked" by that bullet. Delete endless wild goat recipes; insert endless venison recipes!

The "creative" tooling was used to cut the chamber in my "rough" No4. It works very well with any decent .308" diameter bullet, especially Sierra Palma 155s and a couple of brands of 168gn beasties. It means I can use the same range of bullets in that ".303" as my .308 and 7.5 Swiss.

I whacked a bunch of Yugo ball with .311" diameter bullets through that hybrid chamber as soon as possible after getting it together. Pressure problems? None noticed then or any time in the last decade or more.

Despite being 1:12" twist, it is seems to just stabilise the relatively long Mk7 / 8 bullets, but won't stabilise any of the long, extra slinky "VLD" bullets, especially at safe ".303" velocities, but that was never the intention.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

I have done a couple using slightly "tired" heavy 7.62 target rifle barrels. You know the ones: the driver can't get eight of ten "centres" / "V" bulls two weeks in a row and decides to get a new barrel!

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Also very good for the .30 M1 Carbine round.

Very interested in converting a No4 MK1 into a 7.62x51. I have 3 No4 and one SMLE. I was looking for some time for 7.62x51 barrels for the no4 but nothing... I checked the website you posted but it seems to have nothing there regarding the "kit" Could you post the actual address?

thanks

I was told some years ago they are Lithgow. I really have to call Brain Dick this winter.

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.....MJ....

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Originally Posted by MJ1

Brain Dick

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Pardon?

MJ1:

That grey phosphated lower barrel in the pic is not the same as the Lithgow ones I have.

Mine have:

A similar profile to a .303 barrel, the front sight seating lugs set back as per a standard No4 barrel and there are no bayonet lugs forward of the sight.

That barrel looks seriously fatter than standard and seems to have the front sight base further forward.

a) Its not a 303, so cant compete in 303 matches but shoot it all you want. I shoot my 303 alongside palma shooters up to 600m. I dont give a **** frankly I have a lot of fun and that's what its all about. I got 41.2 last time at 500m while sighting it in (it had never been shot at 500m before by me) So a 2 and a 4 high so a 45 could have been possible....not bad for a 60 year old gun.



b) btw I run a 308 FMJ in my as new Lithgow barrel, shoots very well.

c) Service rifle is fine here in NZ, 174gr 303 FMJs flat base are now being made again....I'll let you stew a bit on who's making them....

;]

I just got 100 to try, they might suck.

AXX with a second stamp crown over little crossed flags. I really don't care where is was made it's just someone opinion I regard. It's in my box of spares. It will go on a very nice receiver.

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