Proud of my No 4!

Hello Everyone.
I'm pretty much a No'4 fan out of shear luck. Found this unknown little sporterized surplus rifle at a pawn shop when I had the need for a compact gun for Elk hunting in brushy terrain.

Savage No4 mk1 sn 10c3233.

Shoots amazing and looks good too (if you can stand that it is sporterized).

What brings me here is this: It does not, nor does it appear to ever have had, US Property marked on it.

The assumption from the last forum I joined (one of two anyways) was that when "Bubba" chopped my rifle he ground US Property off. Judging by the markings, Bubba would have had to have milled it off.

Just want to work through this mystery with some experts and enthusiasts such as yourselves and if at all possible find some info on the scope too.

You can be rest assured Longshot that your rifle DID have the US PROPERTY mark applied. Whether someone has since filed it off or milled it off (both simple to do) is another matter. You can easily check with a set of vernier calipers. I'm sure that this feature has previously been discussed in some depth on the forum. The method of mounting your trelescope is not the best or most reliable by any means as the front pad mount is mechanically VERY tenuous

I'm about shedding tears here.... An actual Savage No 4 Mk 1 (no *).... Sporterized.... :eek:

Thank You, Peter, you are, of course, absolutely correct. I'd be embarrassed for not noticing the very faintest curls of the bottom or the U and bottom right of the S (yesterday) if it wasn't so exciting to constantly learn more about the ol' No.4.
Bear, on principal I absolutely agree with you- yet at the time was looking for a compact hunting rifle and never would have purchased an unmolested No.4. As a result, while some other lucky stiff would have found himself extremely lucky to have found a surplus early Savage, I would never have fallen in love with them.
I thought it was odd that the barrel had six grooves as, but I think maybe #s 1c to13c or so had that barrel, based on reading the "2 groove" thread yesterday.
I've come across one other No.4 mk1 since, it was complete and original, wasn't a Savage and just came across as rushed and sloppy. Compared to mine, it wasn't even a fireplace hanger. I did not purchase it, but if I ever come across an original that compares favorably to mine I will.

As a little aside to that, I recall speaking to a dealer while I was at The Small Arms School, who started out in the trade in the early 60's. He commented to me that he understood back then that the trade should scrub or otherwise eliminate the US Property marks as the rifle was liable to forfieture or seizure if it remained. Quite who was going to seize the weapon, heaven knows. But it was a myth anyway......... But it seems strange that other Lend Lease stuff, such as DUKW's, Diamond T's, Half Tracks and Buffalo's etc etc that were still serving up until the 70's had to be disposed of via the authority of the US Military with strict conditions attached. Indeed, in Germany, it all went down to the US Army for disposal in Stuttgart.

The next question is does anyone in the UK have a Savage No4 where the mark has been scrubbed. If so, that's probably the reason

Completly OT but I remember those Diamond Ts in Isleworth in the 60s/70s. That was where Diamond T UK was located back then. I often wondered why the Army returned them to Diamond T.

Surely if the rifle was one of those made for and PAID for by the UK prior to Lend Lease it would not have been marked US Property?

We didn't pay for any of them. We were already skint by December 1941. We couldn't pay our bills. In fact, we were so broke that we couldn't even pay attention! Needless to say, they were ALL marked!

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Originally Posted by Robert303

Surely if the rifle was one of those made for and PAID for by the UK prior to Lend Lease it would not have been marked US Property?

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I'm afraid that was just the M1917s.

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Originally Posted by Robert303

Surely if the rifle was one of those made for and PAID for by the UK prior to Lend Lease it would not have been marked US Property?

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Every Savage from 0C1 until the last rifle that came off of the line was marked "US PROPERTY". I have seen pictures of 0C1 and I have a small collection of Savage rifles from 0C37 thru 0C54632 and they all have it.

My 4C has no detectable trace of the "US Property" and, if removed, it must have been milled off quite professionally. What are the crucial dimensions of a body with the lettering in place that I can compare with mine to verify removal (I assume the main one would be bottom of body up to top of bevel where the markings are normally)? Thanks.

Ridolpho

To be honest Ridolpho. If your body was made by Savage, it WILL have had the mark! The Chinese were masters of removing all traces of US ownership. But if you really want to check, have another Savage or even better, a 4C at hand

Peter: Yes, I don't doubt it. Unfortunately the only Savage I have to compare with is a later Mk1* (23C).

Ridolpho

I have two Savage No4 MkI's in the 4C block and they are both marked US Property. I have been down this road before numerous times on this forum and others and even though I explain that all Savage rifles from 0C1 to 0C63110 (or higher) were marked "US PROPERTY", it is just impossible to convince everyone that they were. :surrender:

BTW Ridolpho, this is not directed at you, just general conversation! :)

Had a nice long reply all plugged in ready to go, and got logged off.

Sporterized with original furniture, P&H replacement parts, scope rings and mounts, and mag.

Any way to find a history of combat action or unit assignment? Did it kill Wehrmacht, etc.?

Can't tell you how much I appreciate your input, and patience, with us relative newbies! I was so wrong in my non-marking assumption (based on taking it completely apart a few years ago) that I am going to post a photo of the affected area!

I hereby affirm that I shall never again imply or assume that ANY Savage No.4 ever left The United States without having the marking US Property

My follow up questions were, "How many came back? and "was it sporterized at P&H?". I will answer the second. No. It must have been done in the US. Why outsource for a Japanese 5rd magazine? Would P&H have left the original furniture, no matter how aesthetically pleasing it is, on the rifle? No.
While it shoots straight, functions exceptionally, and is damn pretty, it must have been sporterized here (I bought it at a pawn shop on the Oregon Coast a week or so prior to 9/11).

You can make out the uneven surfaces, indicating removal, and a few other pics just for fun.

Funny that they would go to the trouble of marking them there instead of on the receiver wall.

Were there not two serial ranges? One with four digit numbers after the "C" and one with five digits and if so, did the SN range not start again at 0C00000 for the second range?

I have a 0C59-- 1942 MkI (not MkI*) here that is US PROPERTY marked, albeit rather faintly.

Any rifle made without US PROPERTY would have been paid for "cash and carry" as it was in the USA while the British had any cash and assets to be divested of.

Yes, they did start a second batch of serial numbers and there was an information circular sent to Quartermasters to this effect in order that there should be no confusion relating to apparent duplicated numbers.. It was because after 99C9999, the numbers re-started at 0C00001. But the numbers only went to somewhere near the 0C38500 or thereabouts region.

I have a feeling in my bones that ALL Savage series production was marked US PROPERTY

The serial numbers at Savage started at 0C1 and went to 99C9999 before changing over to 0C00001 as stated above by PL. The rifles in my collection range from from 0C37 (rifle #37 - 1941 No4 MkI) to 0C54632 (rifle #1,054,632 - 1944 No4 MkI* - near the end of production) and they are all marked US PROPERTY. A member of this forum owns 0C1 and I have seen pictures of it and it is also marked US PROPERTY. I obviously have not seen all 1.2 million +/- rifles made by Savage, but I do know that the first rifle off of the line (0C1) to one of the last to come off of the line (0C54632) were all marked US PROPERTY.

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Originally Posted by tlvaughn

The serial numbers at Savage started at 0C1 and went to 99C9999 before changing over to 0C00001 as stated above by PL. The rifles in my collection range from from 0C37 (rifle #37 - 1941 No4 MkI) to 0C54632 (rifle #1,054,632 - 1944 No4 MkI* - near the end of production) and they are all marked US PROPERTY. A member of this forum owns 0C1 and I have seen pictures of it and it is also marked US PROPERTY. I obviously have not seen all 1.2 million +/- rifles made by Savage, but I do know that the first rifle off of the line (0C1) to one of the last to come off of the line (0C54632) were all marked US PROPERTY.

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Are your early guns 6 groove barrels?

From that we can assume that the last Savages shipped to the UK were in the OC-385?? range. I seem to remember that we had this discussion about the last Savage serial numbers some time ago and I was able to quote the actual wording from the Small Arms Info notes

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Originally Posted by Detroit-1

Are your early guns 6 groove barrels?

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Some are and some have replacement barrels.