What's a good group?

I have 2 carbines, Underwood and IBM, both 1943 according to the numbers. They have the usual post war redo stuff. They look and function excellently. I am shooting them at 50 yard targets off a bench, front pedestal and rear bag. The only problem is my 70 year old eyes. My best 5 round groups have been between 1.25" and 1.5".
My question is...what does a really accurate specimen shoot with a great guy on the trigger and sights?
I have been shooting them for years and have a nice bucket of empty brass. Wondering if it would be worthwhile to try reloads. Haven't done that because I laid in lots of factory rounds before the current situation happened. So far the early LC rounds do best. but a local guy sold me some handloads that printed 1.5" as well. Other factory loads have given best groups between 1.5" and 2". A lot of my tries are over 2" however.
For just fun shooting the old carbines are my favorite rifle. And I wouldn't change a thing on my warbabies. Just wondering what a really fresh bore would do.

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Originally Posted by gayorwade

My best 5 round groups have been between 1.25" and 1.5". My question is...what does a really accurate specimen shoot with a great guy on the trigger and sights?

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From my limited but competitive experience, that is about as good as you're going to get with a carbine in original configuration. In fact, it sounds as if your carbine may well be "a really accurate specimen shoot with a great guy on the trigger and sights".

Don't fiddle with it. Enjoy it.

1.25 and 1.5 sounds good. Don't need anything better. After all it isn't a sniper rifle...or a match gun...

1.5" at 50 yds is great by any shooter with an unmodified M1 Carbine. The bore in your carbine is fine. When looking down the barrel, the rifling is not very distinct even on a new barrel - about the same as a 1911 barrel. Speaking from the standpoint of one almost your age, I'd say your eyes are pretty damn good too!
Now, the carbines were tested at 25 yds and 100 yds for acceptability. The acceptable impact area on the 100 yd target was the aiming point and higher - basically a 16" wide X 12" high rectangle with the point of aim at the bottom center. The perfect shot at 100 yds would be 6" high on the center line. This is with the adjustable sight down on '1.5-1'. So, at 50 yds, about 3" high would be about right, and about 1.5" high at 25 yds. Anyway, your 1.5" group at 50 translates to a 3" group at 100. Now imagine that 3" group in the center of the 12"X16" 'acceptable' rectangle; that is excellent shooting!

Well put...

Reloading can improve accuracy in a carbine. Most often using a good soft point bullet will improve it over a ball bullet. Any of the major makers of reloading bullets like Sierra or Hornady and Speer offer a good soft point bullet.

Congrats, that is a good group. The only Carbine I have ever had that did better was an unmessed with Winchester I had in the 1980s. It would do 2" at 100 yards from a rest with 110 FMJ Remington. Of course my eyes were MUCH better then, too!

A Pepsi can is 2 5/8" wide. I usually hit 9 out of 10 at 100 yards with FMJ. Granted some hit bottom or top ends so a bit taller. I'm pleased with 3" to 4" groups at that range.

Thanks for the comments on carbine accuracy. It is good to learn that my warbabies are GTG.
When I decided to find an M1 Carbine I devoured this forum for information for months It was mental overload. Couldn't absorb what some of you have spent a lifetime learning. But came away from the immersion in carbine-ology with at least a basic idea of what to look for. So when I came upon the Underwood and IBM at gun shows they looked better than many others I had seen.
So thanks to all of you who so generously share your knowledge of this arcane relic from the past. I share your appreciation for this sweet shooting, versatile firearm.
Pepsi cans at 100 yards? Wow. That might be setting the bar pretty high. But if you say it is possible, I will have to give it a go. If I can even sight a pepsi can at that range, but can't make 'em dance, I will have to put some carbine dies on my shopping list.
Semper Fi..

I believe that there is a wide range of acceptable accuracy with carbines. I believe that some will shoot pretty good 1-2" groups at 100 yds, but far more are in the 2-4" range.
Here's my best shooter a NPM with IBM barrel. The 9 ring hit is my bad shooting. This at 100 yds using reloads w/Rem FMJ. The SR-1 has a 3 1/4" 10 ring, so Jim's shooting would easily hold the 10 ring on an SR-1. People should really give their carbines a workout at 100 yds. I'd bet that after some practice they could surprise themselves. I think that the sights, trigger and light weight just make people think that they can't shoot well. And yes, I can't see squat either.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5575a748-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

And yes, I can't see squat either.

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The important thing for good grouping is that you can't see squat consistently :lol:

I regularly fire my carbines at 50 to 75 yards at pine cones and pop cans while on patrol. The Standard Products and Inland I sold would do it, and the Winchester I have now will also do it. Leaning on the 4x4 Patrol truck's hood, I hit some pop cans at about 100 a week or two ago, using my 15 grains of WW296, 110 grain plated bullet loads - I was very happy. All shots either hit the cans or were close enough that they moved them.

To be honest, I'm a little jealous.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-1.jpg

this group I think is one of the best I ever got with the carbine. It was at 100
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-1.jpg

50 yards
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-2.jpg

ABPOS, When you fire from a rest, are you supporting the front of the stock in your hand still? When I shot from a rest without resting the weapon in my cupped off-hand on top of the rest, i get groups like that. When I rest it in my off-hand on top of the rest, I get better groups. I did a post about it here several years ago

Interesting. I'll have to try that. I wonder why still using your hand to grasp it would make a difference. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I either used bags or that caldwell green thingy with the U shape in it. And then my left hand on the rear stock.

To be honest, I thought 4-5/8 was pretty good at 100 yards. For a carbine. But maybe I could tighten that up. The first group I posted was the very first group I shot and I think I found a 4-3/16" group at 100 when looking through them. That third pic is 10 rounds.

I forget what kind of groups you were getting. I do remember thinking yours shot real well. Or you shot them well. One of the two or both. :bow:

I think your 4 1/2 " groups at 100 yards is good, and a normal expectation.

Thank you. Although I don't think I always get that good of a group. I have to get mine out and try all over again.

With all that brass, you might want to try reloading! Gives you something to do on lousy weather winter nights. Dies and presses from Lee are inexpensive and work just fine for carbines. Get carbide dies and a case trimmer, since carbine cases often stretch. Lee makes a cheap trimmer that works well and can be chucked in a drill press. Win 296 powder works well, but it's finicky. With Win 296 load exactly 15 grains, no more, no less, with a 110 grain jacketed bullet - meets mil specs very closely. Found some half-jacketed 100 gr lead RN bullets a while back that are cheap and accurate, but you'll have to look up load data. 4227 powder is also useable but look up data.

I absolutely agree with Jim. Your groups are fine. Shooting paper has a lot to do with environment. At our old club, the range was oriented East to West and the targets would have fabulous morning light conditions with no wind. You could really SEE the target and sights. The range I shoot at now is North to South with a big time crossing wind. No good light comes from the North, so all you see is blurry and full of the pesky cobwebs that plague us with old age. So expecting good shooting is a dream. But it's all there is in this area, so.......

My Standard Products paired with my poor eyesight still managed to group fairly well at 100yds....

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMAG0060-1.jpg

All of my carbines would hold a four inch group or less except one with ball ammo. That one was six inches no matter what. But using a good soft point reload they all except that one would hold two inches or less. That one odd ball would still only do a six inch or bigger group. But most carbines can hold their own at 100 yards for sure.

Great groups, I have had 1 1/2" groups shooting paper at 100 yards from an NPM and Inland. I think 4 1/2" is a reasonable expectation. But there are so many variables. Barrel, barrel band, sights, ammo, wind, lighting direction, younger or older eyes, bag rest, elbow rest, standing, sitting, prone, how smoothly a person squeezes the trigger. That's for us weekend shooters.

Now consider the anxiety of facing someone shooting back at you. I carried a carbine on my boat one of my tours. I wasn't worried about 2" or 10" just hitting my target as we did insertions and extractions. It did it's job. Remember it is a combat weapon. Not intended for competition shooting.

Maybe some of us are expecting more then they were designed to do?

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

I absolutely agree with Jim. Your groups are fine. Shooting paper has a lot to do with environment. At our old club, the range was oriented East to West and the targets would have fabulous morning light conditions with no wind. You could really SEE the target and sights. The range I shoot at now is North to South with a big time crossing wind. No good light comes from the North, so all you see is blurry and full of the pesky cobwebs that plague us with old age. So expecting good shooting is a dream. But it's all there is in this area, so.......

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My range does east to west. I agree about the sunlight. However, my range is right off of lake michigan. And when I say right off, I mean right off, There are berms and then there's the lake. And it's usually pretty windy. We get some calm days. But I swear, even when there is absolutely no wind in land, there's a 5-10 mph wind at the range. They don't call Chicago the windy city for nothin.... I'm like 70 miles north. :) Not that I'm complaining. Or making excuses. hehehheehe


Thank you about the groups. I can always improve though. And yeah, I might see better groups with handloads. But I'm still a novice compared to many. But I love shooting for groups. Is fun to me.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

Great groups, I have had 1 1/2" groups shooting paper at 100 yards from an NPM and Inland. I think 4 1/2" is a reasonable expectation. But there are so many variables. Barrel, barrel band, sights, ammo, wind, lighting direction, younger or older eyes, bag rest, elbow rest, standing, sitting, prone, how smoothly a person squeezes the trigger. That's for us weekend shooters.

Now consider the anxiety of facing someone shooting back at you. I carried a carbine on my boat one of my tours. I wasn't worried about 2" or 10" just hitting my target as we did insertions and extractions. It did it's job. Remember it is a combat weapon. Not intended for competition shooting.


Maybe some of us are expecting more then they were designed to do?

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Wow, you and Bruce just gave me some humbling info. NO kidding. I'll have to put a scope on mine to get groups that small. LOL. Smallest group I ever got with irons was 1-3/8" with my Garand. but it was definitely not the norm for me.

And I have never had good luck with my Garands, 3" at best. Never been a Garand guy, too heavy. I should sell the two I have.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-2.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-3.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-4.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3433DXRO-2.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...523EWSNR-1.jpg

Yeah, I think 3 MOA might be a good average with me and my garand also. Some loads do a little better than others. But I'm no expert. That's for sure. I think the garand is pretty heavy too. I don't like shooting it off hand at all. Kneeling, sitting or prone is fine. But dang it's heavy offhand. I'm pretty small though. I was stronger at one time, but not so much any more.

Checking sights at 25 yds. 11(12)/1942 Underwood. 25 rounds!

Here is my best 10 shot group from my I.B.M. This was the FIRST time I was able to get all 10 shots on the target. I followed the adjustment procedure shown on CMP’s website. Target is a printout of the Appleseed Redcoats 100 yard target, approximately 6”w x 5.5”h. Used a 6 o-clock hold, with a Caldwell rest under the front of the stock just behind the sling, free hand rest on the butt of the stock, VERY slow fire (1 – 2 min/shot). Yes I am proud of myself, I’ve only been able to do this 3 times.

CMP article; “Carbine Shooting with Accuracy” (section 4 explains adjustment)
http://www.odcmp.com/Training/CR/CarbineNotes.pdf

My BEST I.B.M. M1 carbine
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/m1_020-1.jpg

My BEST 10 shot 100 yard group
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IBMat50-1.jpg

Nice shooting guys!