Sporterized No.4 T value ??

I saw a sporterized and damaged No.4 T today. In addition to the stock being altered beyond repair the bolt handle has been broken off and a piece of flat metal brazed on in its place. Front sight is there but no "ears" (sorry I don't know the correct term yet). Rifling looks very good viewed without a strong light. I did not see any pitting. It did have the part that the front of a scope mount would attach to in place.

I have no idea what these are worth but considered making an offer for what is essentially a barreled action. I'm a sucker for old military rifles that need a little TLC but have only done US issue so far.

So, a few questions:

1. What would a fair price be as described?
2. Are enough parts available to do a decent restoration?
3. Would the price of said parts be more than the finished rifle would be worth?
4. What does an original No.4 T sell for?

I wish I knew more about these but obviously I don't so any other information would be appreciated. I enjoy a challenge but not "mission impossible"...:)

Hank

All the parts you need are available, but wheter or not it's worth it, only you can decide. What you will end up with will be a refurbished rifle. If I was to be unkind I'd call it a bitser; but if you were to get the bolt properly matched and renumbered then that would go some way to increasing its value. The biggest expense will be the scope and mount, all the other bits can be picked up quite reasonably, even if you have to resort to e-bay.
HM.

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Originally Posted by harry mac

All the parts you need are available, but wheter or not it's worth it, only you can decide. What you will end up with will be a refurbished rifle. If I was to be unkind I'd call it a bitser; but if you were to get the bolt properly matched and renumbered then that would go some way to increasing its value. The biggest expense will be the scope and mount, all the other bits can be picked up quite reasonably, even if you have to resort to e-bay.
HM.

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Thanks for the information. I've done some pricing this afternoon and seems that it would not be a winner. Too many things not found or more expensive than I thought. I'd better stick to something I'm more familiar with.
Hank

Depends on what you pay, I'd buy it if the action still worked ie not worn out etc...like $50~$100, yeah sure, a bit of history. Put up some pics. Beware there are forgeries about so it may not be genuine.

Someone said "bitsa" considering these would have been maintained and maybe FTR'd, well they are going to have a lot of bits changed "officially" so replacing with your own sourced, correct pieces personally I cant see there is a difference. Sure its not going to be worth $5k or something as a mint original, but I'd be proud to own such a gun and I'd shoot it here in NZ in memory of those fallen.

PS I think you should be able to pick up all the parts with patience, I'd love a project like this myself.

If I could get it for $100 or less, I would be more tempted but he wants $200. I'm sure he would take less but don't know how much. I'm still looking at the parts availability but looks like I'd have around $600- $800 in a completed rifle as best I can count all the small parts and hardware. And, without the scope. I know folks who are fans of the Enfield's have their sources for parts. I buy and trade with certain people myself that I know deal in US military rifles. I don't have "sources" for these parts so I would have to first find them and then probably pay retail since I don't have any trading items. I may go back in a couple days with some cash. If it was a little nicer, I'd consider buying it and reselling to someone who would restore it. It does look pretty rough. But, I also like to see old military rifles kept shooting if possible. Not sure about all the markings and did not have a camera with me today. I'll have to sleep on this one.

Hank

Every No4 or No4T that came into an Armourers shop in its life and left the Armourers shop was a bitza thereafter according to some of those on this site. So on that basis, probably every one in the world is a bitza. After all, they only ever went into our shops because they needed to! We replaced butts and telescopes and torn sling loops and stripped screws every day of the week for heavens sake!

If it's cheap, then get it and use it as a 5 year restoration project. Is it a bitza thereafter? Is a restored MGB GT or Triumph TR a Bitza. Of course it's not. What you're looking at is no more than replacing the worn out trim in the car. The FUN part is collecting the other parts to make it a complete CES.

If it's totally worn out, then just use it occasionally and treasure it as a well worn old family friend with a bit of history - like the family MGB GT or Triumph

Brackets..... Readily available. Telescopes....... get one while you can. Bolts, cheap. Get it set up correctly and fitted PROPERLY, then numbered........ what's the difference between Brian at BDL doing it PROPERLY and me doing it properly in the Armourers shop. GET IT. THEY ONLY MADE 26,000 AND AIN'T MAKIN NO MORE!

I agree entirely with PL. Although it may be that there is a price differential between here in the UK & in the US. At the kind of price the OP mentions once restored I would still regard it very much as a bargain if it were for sale over here. I guess if you're interested in it, & it is a feasible restoration project, & if you won't be out of pocket on its local value by the time it is done, then I'd go for it.

ATB.

And remember this...................... You might be out of pocket today, but you can be rest assured, as sure as god made little green apples, that you won't be out of pocked in a years time, believe me! There was a great man on this forum once who used to say '..........everything is cheap - yesterday'!

As for the telescope....... Read a short article about buying one somewhere else on this forum.

I sent an offer this afternoon and he should let me know later today or tomorrow morning. If I get it, at least I can clean it a bit and probably get a bolt fitted. Not sure what is involved with the numbering of a bolt. Then if I decide to not do any more, someone else will have a better starting point and I will know a little more about Enfield's.

Give Brian Dick at BDL Ltd in SC a call when you get it. I'm sure he can help you. bdlltd.com

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Originally Posted by pastprime

I'm still looking at the parts availability but looks like I'd have around $600- $800 in a completed rifle as best I can count all the small parts and hardware.

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Im restoring a std no4 mk2. I got it for $350NZ and Ive spent $300NZ on it in replacement wood etc plus a lot of hours fiddling. I have and am enjoying it greatly, a winter project. Im getting bits off ebay from the UK and trademe (NZ's version of ebay) Im semi-crippled for bits and price as I cant get much if any from the US, but thats where you are!!! way cheaper and plentiful parts!!!!!

If the barrel is good and if the action isnt worn out and if its a genuine T, I'd pay $200US for it right now if I had that as an option. The "bummer" would be the scope...if nothing else a T sould be an accurate shooter even with iron sights.

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Give Brian Dick at BDL Ltd in SC a call when you get it. I'm sure he can help you. bdlltd.com

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I'll give him a call. Thanks.

The owner accepted my offer and I'll pick up the rifle or what's left of it tomorrow. I'll try to post a picture and you can see how deep a hole I'm in...:)

And, since I'll probably be spending a fair amount of time here soon, I decided to contribute. This is an excellent source of knowledge.

Hank

Listen and repeat after me a zillion times....... "I AM NOT IN A HOLE. I AM SITTING ON A GOLD MINE....."

Hi Hank,

Have a look at my 2 threads below..
No32 Mk2 Porn.
No4 T Rebuild

This was a "Genuine" No4T barrelled action i had, i rebuilt it back to a complete usable rifle. I get as much joy out of shooting and owing this "Bitsa" as any rifle i have..

Go for it and enjoy..

Paul..

Settle down Pete, only females sit on goldmines:beerchug:

Hopefully, these pictures are usable. Absolutely new to posting pictures here and it's been a good many years since I held on of these rifles.

I'm sure I've missed some areas of importance. I tried to show markings that I've seem in other photos here. Please let me know what other features would be of importance to see.

I may not be in a hole but I am in a divot....:)

Sorry. Forgot to ask the most import and question before I start on this: What do I have ???

Hello pastprime .... :)

I'm no expert, but I think you have the remnants of an authentic No.4(T) sniper ... :)

Check the 130 picture virtual tour of the 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle (Mfg by BSA Shirley - M47c) displayed in the United Kingdom - Milsurp Knowledge Library.

Compare all the markings on the No.4(T) you're looking at against it. ;)

Hope that helps ... :thup:

Regards,
Doug

Thank you for the reply and the link. I do have to raise the rear sight to remove the bolt and I'm not clear on what the undercut surfaces of the front sight should look like. But, I believe the rifle has almost all the features listed. Here are a couple more pictures:

I think that it is fair to say that you have indeed struck oil.

Now say to yourself a thousand times again "I AM NOT IN A HOLE. I AM SITTING ON A GOLD MINE....."

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I think that it is fair to say that you have indeed struck oil.

Now say to yourself a thousand times again "I AM NOT IN A HOLE. I AM SITTING ON A GOLD MINE....."

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Very well. I agree I'm not in a hole. It does appear to be a genuine No. 4 (T) thanks to yours and all the other information I see here.

My next thing is to make a list of what I need for a repo-restoration and the approximate cost. There is no way I could do an original. I'm retired and this fixed income thing is not exactly what I imagined....:(

This would be one of the most challenging projects I've undertaken and I need to be sure I'm up to the commitment. The enjoyment of learning about and working on the rifle must exceed the monetary outlay.

Looks pretty good to me - still got pads - how much was it - $100??? Either way it's the kind of thing that doesn't come around very often!

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Originally Posted by pastprime

Sorry. Forgot to ask the most import and question before I start on this: What do I have ???

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You have one huge pile of awful junk, you lucky so and so............

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pastprime

This would be one of the most challenging projects I've undertaken and I need to be sure I'm up to the commitment. The enjoyment of learning about and working on the rifle must exceed the monetary outlay.

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I'm sure we'd all love to see you save this old girl and document your restoration process here for all of us to follow along ... :thup:

Regards,
Doug

I'd start with reading whats on this site and there are a few books....you dont need to rush out an buy all the parts at once, so shop for the right bit at a good price. I really find the research interesting.....myself....

SMLE Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts

Is not a bad start IMHO.

Here's a bolt for instance $33,

Bolt, Stripped Gun Parts | 486630 | Numrich Gun Parts

Now whether its the right one is the magic Q. looks like the head you have is stamped and original maybe.

parts schematic,

PARTS LIST - NO 4 Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts

A stock set but you want a British one and not say a Savage made one,

Stock Set, Original - - Gun Parts | 502850 | Numrich Gun Parts

On the butt stock at the front, no stampings at all?

An even better idea, go to Brian at BDL Ltd and see what he's got by way of parts you need. Also, you'll be supporting a supporter of the forum that's already helped you loads. He'll probably be best to CHS, fit and then assemble the bolt PROPERLY. Then number it. In respect of the bolt, DON'T listen to your local gun shop.

I know a lot of people think that I spout a load of crap, but let me tell you that we saw hundreds of these rifles in all sorts of states and conditions in our small and large Armourers shops, worked on by hundreds of Armourers across the whole age and experience spectrum. And guess what........ I NEVER, ever, never in my whole life saw or heard of a real Armourer sifting through trays of parts for the 'correct' maker. You took and selectively fitted or fine fitted and/or adjusted whatever you had. But even better than that, I never, ever saw or heard of a sniper or user come in to complain that we'd used a mix of parts either. I saw plenty come in and say thanks for the good job though

Just my 2c's worth

Thank you for all of the comments and advice. It is valued and appreciated.

I left a message with Brian yesterday and hope he will return my call soon. When I made my "want list" of parts yesterday I used the prices from Numrich's. They don't always have the nicest parts but they do have a straight forward return policy.

I have read a lot here the past few days about the fitting of parts and agree there are some things that will be best left to those with the correct tools and more expertise. I have installed a new bolt in an older rifle and Peter's instructions for the bolt fitting are excellent but I would have to purchase items I would probably only use once. Hopefully, Brian can help with this.

The project will begin, albeit slowly, to bring the rifle back to shooting condition in it's original configuration. Pictures will be posted as things progress. Feel free to critique and advise as you see fit.

Hank

brian at BDL is the way to go. he has all kinds of parts you need. he found all my parts i needed for my no 4 mk 2 restoration and my long branch.



and if you don't want to fool with it , sell it to me and i will restore it......

If it was mine and I was in your shoes, I would send the bare body and barrel to BRian and tell him to build you up a new bolt, test, adjust, CHS and fit it, then number it and THEN bead blast the whole thing, phosphate it and then paint it. And then send the whole thing back to you but fitted with the serviceable bits that were on it PLUS fit replacement parts for the duff bits.

Later, you can have a go at fitting the fore-end and butt etc etc and setting up the trigger mechanism. All in your own time at your own pace as and when finances allow.

But thinking further ahead, you could ask him to fit a UK made CORRECT modern replacement bracket and collimate this with the bore (he can do this as he's been well schooled!). Then in a couple of years time, all you have to do is to fit your restored telescope, sight-in, zero and have fun, knowing that the important bracket, body and bore are matched