Filled the Last of the British Enfield Type Bayonets

I'm not yet interested in one by each maker but I have sought one of each type. I believe I have completed that today.

I have the No 4's, cruciform, MK I the solid body spike, MK II, the two piece spike, MK II*, the forged spike, MK III,the No 5 carbine, the No 9 MK I and South African No 9, and now the No 7.

Is in pretty good shape but a lot of the black paint is chipped off. Does not have the "England" stamped in the handle but "Made in UK" is stamped on the metal.

Not sure on the makers mark but there is a "P" over and "O 3" and the acceptance arrow. The "P" is not in a circle however so this probably makes it the more common Newport produced bayonet.

It is a pretty interesting bayonet and I believe it has just become one of my favorites. I always pictured these as being weak somehow with the pivoting handle but it's actually very solid.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...40fa78d7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8a05bd3d-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e53fabf6-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ee4f0096-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...054d7afb-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7523be62-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9020adb3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...05022013-1.jpg

Very nice, I remember when those came into Canada in the end of the 70's...there were red and black, large ring and small ring...what ever you wanted. All gone now...

Poole? Very nice!How big a dent in the wallet? I have a bit of catchig up to do How about family photo. The No 7 is one of my favorites, I am amazed at the quality in design and manufacture.Keep a lookout for a black handled one.

Are you doing countries? because there is a Pakistani No9, A south African 1907, An Indonesian 1907, an Italian SMLE made with a Carcano blade and also an Italian No9 with a long Carcano blade. The Afghan 1903's with the long blade and short blade with afghan markings, the Indian 1962 which was a reworked and remarked 1907 with the Ashoka lions not the UK crown, the ultra rare 1902 (only 350 long blades made and no way to ID the short blade versions) there are also WWI German Ersatz bayonets to fit the SMLE rifle. I found out a long time ago you cant say a set is complete unless it is a very small set. I have of course ignored all prototypes etc that exist in only 1's and 2's

Carl,

I kind of limited this to WWII and I'm not too keen with finding all the different countries. One of each type is good enough for me right now. Later who knows. I already have a lot more bayonets than I planned. They multiplied very fast. I do have about half a dozen of the MK4 II's of different manufacturers. If I find one cheap, I buy it.

Hooked on History,

More than I wanted, less than it could have been $109 which makes it one of the more expensive bayonets I've purchased. I must note it did not come with the scabbard. I had that on a No 7 and quickly swapped it out. I think that's actually more than I paid for all three of the Carcano folders I have.

The No7's were all good, firm and solid when they were new from Ordnance, 'new' rebuilt at workshops, sat on the shelf in the Armoury or on parade. But once you used them on the bayonet fighting gantry/gallery, they were crap. The shaft worked loose from the blade as it was only fixed with (I seem to remember.....) three rivets. You couldn't weld the shaft to the blade because it'd upset the temper at the critical part of the blade (although they did allow us to tig the loose rivets of the L1A1 crosspiece to the blade at that point.......). And no play was acceptable. So after a few trips into the Armourers shops to be re-rivetted, they were scrapped in large numbers, especially at the Infantry Training regimental depots. Practically, the No9 was far better but...... In fact, so said, the only good thing about them was that the now unserviceable blades made good scrapers or straight-edges for the Armourers and Carpenters shops!

When the old 34 Command Workshop closed down there were absoluitely loads of spares for these bayonets in the trays. I took a few bits and bobs - as you do and I noticed that most were marked M47, BSA. Not your usual bayonet contractors!

Just a minute......... I seem to recall doing a big spiel about the techynical aspects of these bayonets a couple of years ago, taken from the Command workshop informal work-notes. Duplicating work....., It's old age creeping up on me

I have a number of them and did some research and found the small ring No7 bayonets were for the EM2.

Looks like you still need a No. 6 and a No. 8

I seem to recall reading in the trials papers that the 'new' 50's pattern small ring 'No7 type' bayonet was going to be a universal issue for the EM series AND No4 rifle. That's why they made it structurally different/stronger internally. This was because the original No7 had already been codified as belonging to the Mk5 Sten Gun family - hence the B3 VAOS prefix. The fact that it FITTED the rifle was coincidence or bye the bye really. It was a STEN gun bayonet and the new small ring was going to be the universal rifle bayonet.

Indeed, the new-at-the-time SMG, the Sterling/L2 was using the old trusty reliable and well tried and tested No5 bayonet and on acceptance of the new EM rifle there'd be a new rifle bayonet across the board and the crap old style No7 bayonet would die a natural death with the Mk5 Sten gun.

I thought that this was all common knowledge - yes? No?

Peter,

I don't know a lot about the No7's so any information is good to me. Some people call them a "jungle" bayonet and say that they fit on the No 5 but I don't see how it possibly could.

And I believe this would be a "large ring" bayonet but I didn't know there was a small ring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Albayo

the small ring No7 bayonets were for the EM2.

---

Of course that's right...

Well, almost right Jim. As I said, the No7 type bayonet with the small ring - if you'll excuse the phrase - was structurally stronger and more durable but was developed as a universal rifle bayonet.

Here's a thing...... KNowing sod-all about the non standard bayonets, can one of you bayonet fiends out there show us the internal mechanism of the stronger more durable small ring No7 type bayonets. I think that there were a few different trial types but we only had one or two at Warminster plus some old ex-Hythe trial papers that really gave the No7 bayonet a well deserved slagging off when used on the rifle. Mind you, when used on the Sten gun it was deemed as 'marginal' but as they say, if you need a bayonet on a submachine gun, then you REALLY do need a bayonet!!

I've certainly learned some new things. Thanks Aragorn 243 and Peter.

It's strange how for years you just assume that some of this stuff is common knowledge but it ain't! While I was at Warminster I used to bang my head on the table and wonder why the authors out there would read 4 books on a subject to write book number 5 and then author number 6 would read the last 5 to write number 7! Complete with errors! Anyway, thanks for your kind comments GEW and I'm sure I speak for Aragorn too.

Better mention it here too. Sorry if it's a bit macabre but the trials at Hythe were against freshly slaughtered goats and the No7 on the rifle couldn't even lift the carcass without deforming! Better stop there before we mention the AR15 rifle and bayonet trials in Johore - goats again, but live!

Well Peter, goats (and perhaps authors of Book #7 as well) can be ferocious, so.... :cheers:

Thought this may be of interest,

British EM-2 rifle - YouTube

Can you just imagine giving a rifle with a bolt like that to a bunch of crunchies? I think that we made the right choice with the L1A1

I did look at that. It makes as much sense as the Johnston rifle. Too much detail to be fiddling with in low light and in a hole...he said it was a handful in 7.62x51, sure looked like it too. Yes, the FN was the right choice for an infantry/universal rifle.

When I had one apart, as I did many a time, I just used to sit and look in sheer befuddlement at the bolt and imagine telling the last shooting detail to dress back to the rear of the firing point and strip and clean their weapons to save some time (and it also kept idle hands busy too.......). Jeeeeees..... It was bad enough with L1A1 extractor stays (In fact I used to tell the NCO's to NOT allow them to strip the extractors while cleaning. Because you KNOW that if one goes zooming off into space, then the rifle will be put back in the Armoury missing the part!)). Just imagine it with those loose EM floppy-eared locking cams that were all matched to the individual weapon being sat on an old groundsheet. These EM locking cams were supposedly a matched and sized-for-length set which allowed the Armourers to correct CHS. At Shrivenham, WO2 Davies wouldn't let anyone except himself clean the EM's because of the bolt plus other nits that were a disaster waiting to happen!

The rifle simply couldn't cope with 7.62mm. In fact the late Maurice Fogwell who was in the background during the filmed Infantry shoot (shown here a couple of years ago) said that it couldn't even cope with .22" rimfire!

To be fair though Peter, if it had come to production, I'm sure they'd have made mods on the fiddly little parts. Take for example the original FN firing pins were one part, changed to two. Look at the mod in the trigger/sear relationship? Hammer spring housing...there's more.