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Took a piece of boiler plate out to the woods and shot it with my Nagant and my Colt AR 15.
The larger holes on the left (of course) are the Nagant. The bullets had a steel core had the plate did not phase them.
The American .223s went right through also on the right corner. I shot some Russian .223s and all the did was dimple the reverse side and did not pass through. The lead splatter you see are from pistol cartridges
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0626-1.jpg
You mean your Mosin Nagant, the Nagant is a revolver "M1895"....;)
The AR doesn't really surprise me. The velocity does wonders. I still think if they sacrificed a bit of velocity and went with a round(ish) nose lead core, .224 dia bullet, they'd be able to get about an 85 or 90 grain bullet with 2800 FPS...give better terminal ballistics...better knock down...? What sayest Y'all?
Makes sense to me, especially in short range urban combat. The round nose will cut down the BC of the bullet but the trade off in terminal ballistics is worth "range".
One draw back may be weight, as in rounds an individual can carry but then again it could be negligible. The heavier bullet may require a different twist rate also but that's for the engineers to answer.
When we were carrying 7.62, we didn't worry about weight. Just numbers. We shot slower too...most of the time. Doesn't matter, you still run out eventually. I know there's a 70 gr round nose bullet available and have always wondered about giving it a try...they make as large as 90 gr match.
The Speer 70gr semi-spitzer you refer to is a good bullet for game up deer sized critters so long as shots are limited to 100 or so yards. It isn't very aerodynamic and looses velocity and energy rapidly. When launched at 2800 fps mv it has slowed down to 1804 fps and 504 ft. lbs. energy at 250 yds.
The Black Hills Mk.262 Mod 0 & Mod 1 77gr OTM round is about as good as it gets IMO for long range shooting with a 5.56 AR, if you can find any. They are capable of making kills out to 700 meters when fired from a barrel 18'' or longer according to the DoD.
SSA offers a load that is said to be very similar in performance to the Mk.262, it supposedly pushes a 77gr Sierra MK at 2750 fps from a 16'' barrel. I have some but have yet to chrono any to see if the claims are true.
The trouble with the 80 and 90 gr match bullets is they are so long that they usually can't be seated deep enough to fit the mag.
At one time there was a Heavy Shot .224 bullet on the market that was the same length as a traditional 55gr .224 bullet but actual weight was 70 gr. Evidently it didn't pan out, I don't see them offered anymore.
I'll bet that one's the one I was thinking of. It was 25 years ago anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I deer hunt with 55gr Sierra PSPs and could not be more satisfied! It does the job RIGHT NOW! No tracking, no waiting. Heavier bullets work, but not as quickly.
Yes, I've taken deer around here with 55 gr and they did work well. Lots of shock value. I was referring to the reports coming back that show insurgents not being downed by carbine fire...maybe the hits aren't quite what the shooters think they are.
Carlos Hathcock and his spotter( Jim Land I think it was) once shot a VC scout to pieces before he stayed down for good. Later it was determined the VC was high as a kite from chewing betelnut. Been a while since I read the book but I seem to recall that it took 7 or 8? rounds to do the job. Hathcock was shooting a 30-06 Winchester M-70 and his spotter an M-14. No questioning the knock down power of those two rounds.
In the book Blackhawk Down the Delta operators were quite disgruntled about the performance of the then relatively new M-4 Carbine saying that more often than not the Somali insurgent would take 3-4 rounds through the chest before collapsing or turning to stagger away. Again it was evident the insurgents were high on something when hit and evidently the drugs were dulling the effects. I believe it. I once got into a slug fest at the local honky tonk with a rather large dude that was high on crack cocaine and just about got hung out to dry. No matter how hard or where I landed a punch they had little effect.
It could also be that the combination of lower muzzle velocity due to a much shorter barrel with a heavier bullet and the lack of expanding projectiles result in less likely immediate incapicatation. I've noticed that the deer don't drop with a chest shot nearly as quickly when using heavy bullets in 16" carbines. It's more like shooting them with a .308 Win. Effective, but not borderline frightening as with the 55gr in a 1-12 twist 20" bbl.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Mind you I don't think a .223 is a great long range deer round. But that's not a problem in the woods!
This has always been a problem...Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
No kidding! Even 12 ga slugs have failed to stop baddies tripping on PCP. (Which drug thankfully doesn't seem to be popular anymore.)
There have been various complaints from the services in various quarters of the world that the 5.56's lack penetration on the mud huts etc where as the 7.62 NATO has no dramas, and the BMG 50 cal is still Ma Duece of the battle field though I would not want to be on the receiving end of a GAU 30mm from an A-10.
My sons Rem 700 .223 Remington is throated for the 80gn SMK's so case capacity is not lost as we shoot 1000yds it like most sub cals is pretty wind affected though it cannot shoot the lighter projies very well to much jump but this type of shooting is teaching him to read conditions before he gets behind my 7.62 or the 6.5/284.
I have read Carlos Hatcocks book and have his autobiography as well one thing stands out with Carlos was his shooting ability even after he was injured by that mine in an Amtrack.
Injured as he was he dragged Marines out of that flaming hulk, I also think it was Carlos and Land or maybe Bourke that pinned a whole swag of VC in a paddy field for a don't quote me on this more than 24 hours, using 105mm Ilum rounds at night to keep up the light. (to slack to fish out the book)
Proper use of cover and accurate shooting decimated a fair few of them.
But his best was his 5 day stalk of the General which took 3 days to crawl to the firing position and in Carlos's words a light speed 2 day crawl away, he had 1 shot at 800yds, cold barrel, early morning though the smoke from the fires aided the wind doping but the heavy cold air he had to dope it, the rest is history.
As an after thought Carlos always thought that this one shot caused a spike in US casualties in the area "White Feather" was ceretainly amongst the best of Marine Snipers. :thup: