How many were estimated to have survived through the war?
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How many were estimated to have survived through the war?
I know of one in Australia
6 were in the system to be converted into L42 spec but only two made it due to non interchangeability problems with the others
Nice rifles Warren. Mine is not as nice, being as I got it as a barrelled action, but still had the cutoff, Enfield rear sight, and front waisted site protector. Price was right though. Traded a guy a bog standard No4 for it, as all he really wanted was a Enfield to shoot.
The reason I am asking is I will have a display table at the Washington Arms Collectors gun show this weekend south of Seattle. Trying to come up with an accurate blurb for the rifle.
Warren, are you available by email or PM? I finally have some needs for British gun related stuff to trade for the Swift Trainer target valise. Nothing too dear or exxy.
PETER L said 2 made it to L42s then Warren pulls 2 out of the shed. Gobsmacked just gobsmacked. By the way Warren have they ever been used they look that good from here.
I'm scratching my head Bindi......... Two were suitable for conversion to L42 and then two are pulled out of Warrens shed. But they are trials No4T's not trial No4T's converted later to L42's!
Ex trials L42 A-0417 was disposed of recently in the UK as I understand
Peter just my warped way to say 2 trials survived the war to the L42 conversion,then Warren pulls 2 very good examples of the trials Ts out of his shed. As you may guess they are more than a little rare on my part of the planet.
There's one at the Waiouru Army Museum
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../10/hrxr-1.jpg
As someone not that much into Enfields, may I comment that as far as I can see the rifles from Warren are No.4 T's, while Peter is talking about L42A1's? So if Warren has two No. 4 T based on the No. 4 Trial with Hal O'Peridol here has a barreled action, and Peter tells that at least two were updated to L42A1 (with a total of 6 to be converted) this should tell us that minimum of 9 trials rifles were converted to No. 4 T's. Or did I miss something?
The Q was how many of the 1500 trials rifles which were made into Ts survived. Sniper rifles had a hard life and a low survival rate. Warrens rifles are No4 trials Ts not No 4ts, they still have the cutoff which was not on the No4.
In short, you missed something Promo!
And here's something else. I'm sure Ian won't mind me saying this now, but that mysterious 1403 figure of trials converted to T's has never been substantiated/verified/quantified in records. I had access to what remained of the records at RSAF while researching the little No4T book and had to accept defeat and simply use what was available.
But there was a bit of a sting in the tail here too. Because Jack Cartwright, who is mentioned in the book and who by dint of coincidence was a good friend of Doug Maber was the Deputy AIA (the Small Arms School rep in short.....) at Enfield and he disputed the figure after publication. And it was this that taught me to always re-chech heretofor published facts. In this case, it was/must have been/might be/almost correct but ACTUALLY correct. Nobody can say, including me who has probably researched it as good as anyone.
But like I always say - and in apology to Ian and others who have written small-arms books - the first person to read your book immediately knows more than you do. And they're always more than forthcoming in telling you! That's because they now know ALL that you have just written PLUS the tiny amount that they knew before.
I suppose this can only amount to a straw poll of those owned by members - just as no-one knows how many L42s, No4ts etc survived either as no records seem to have been kept.
Still - I'm all for threads containing pics of trials snipers, and I'm certainly interested to know if some are in the hands of our esteemed members.
And fear ye not Peter - your book contained all the very very small amount of information I knew already - and a whole bunch more.
The Combined Services Museum in Malden, Essex has a Trials converted to No.4(T). I was in-correctly labelled (like may other guns from the Donnington Collection) when i was last there.
Peter's comments encouraged me to go dig in the pile and I was able to confirm that I have one of his two trials rifles converted to L42(T). I did find five No.4 Mk1 Trials (T)s as well. I think there might be some unaltered No.4s as well but they are harder to identify without sorting. I guess I am doing my part to preserve what is left of the 1500.
Hi breakeyp - I'd certainly love to see pics of the trials L42!
Plus one in Scotarms last year, Trials No4T (if it was the real Mcoy) definitley had not seen the the inside of an Armourers shop for a long time, same also with the scope that came with it.
I have a sported No 4 T trials rifle. Having been considering putting it back together in military form, but that would mean removing the shortened Enfield barrel.
If someone is building a database of these rifles I will send them the serial number and description.
If it's just the foresight blocks and bayonet lugs, then just carefully sleeve that section as discussed here several times. But this leads us on to a further point...... Just what is more original, a cut down sporter that ain't even remotely nearanything connected with originality and a trials No4T with a replacement barrel and a fore-end and..... and..... fitted at an Armourers Base workshop in the 50's - or even into the 70's. We were still doing them.
Or what about a Long Branch Lyman TP that was left at Hythe (now Warminster) after the war by trainee Dutch (some say Belgian) snipers. Been round the block, had a new M47 barrel fitted, re-phosphated etc etc. Is it just a heap of worthless tat now because it's not original. Or is it OK because of....... what? Food for thought I'd say
On short notice, this was one of the quick pictures I could find. Need to pull it out and fully document it. It has been through a FTR and had a Mark 3 scope fitted (all matching numbers to the rifle).
I guess it survived via an FTR!! I shoot it and plan to continue to do so.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1727-1.jpg
3rd from the bottom (And no I don't still have all of these. I have thinned down the collection considerably and only kept three all matching ones including the Trials T)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1723-1.jpg
Attachment 46442
Found one more that was in the wrong place. The mind is the second thing to go!!
So right now we are up to about 20 plus survivors just on our little group...
The middle one has a leather lace on cheek piece and that is how I got it about 40 years ago...never got around to changing it and cannot remember if the screw holes are in the stock or not.
Brian, you certainly had a very nice collection, this is an interesting topic.
Thanks for the kind words. I still have 3 all matching rifles. Kinda wished i had kept them all but I felt I needed to focus on quality and not on quantity. I was able to use the funds from the sale of the No 4 Mk 1 T's to dive head first into the L42A1, Enforcer and L39A1 realm. That has been expensive!!
Thanks,
Brian B
Brian at least we know where a small percentage of No4T,s are ..... Nice collection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B
Oh my goodness! I think I have a case of the vapors after that pic!
---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------
I've been able to "ressurect" mine, but I guess id it all just a piece of tat, as Peter calls it, since it is a bitser. :)
Beech stocked, non matching No32MkI scope via Warren and a futher mismatched bracket via Alan de Enfield.
I'll get a pic or two up later tonight.
A question on the No 4 T tirals rifles.
the one I have (badly sported) has the remains of a Trials buttstock with the ID disc. The wood is walnut, while the checkpiece seems to be walnut stained beech (based on grain). Is this common on those rifles? I ask as I have seen on other buttsock inletted for the stock disc (the one I have is so badly sanded as to be beyong saving) and it is beech wood. Were any of the trials rifles stocked in beech? Were any of the trails snpers stocked in beech?
One last point, I seem to recall speaking to a chap who had one of the Indian No 4 T rifles that was built on a Trials action. This rifle had the center bedded metal bit and I think, (but am not sure) the stock had the bolt through the forend. That rifle was stocked in beech, or so the fellow that owned it so described it. The rifle came out of Springfield Sporters in Penn Sun sometime in the late 1990s. I dod nto recall any other detaisl on this rifle of if the buttstock had the stock disc on it.
I have been tempted to restore the No 4 tirals rifle I have, it would be obvious it is a restoration, as the scoep bases are missing and the action was drilled and taped for a convential scope mount by the previous idiot who owned it. He also cut down the wood, shortened the barrel and cute the buttstock to allow installation of a nice recoil pad. But given the impossibility to source correct parts, it seems like making up a fake for some reason.
Used to have 4 trials T's - three 1931's & a 1933. The two less complete 31's I sold/traded (I know where they still are) & the most complete 31 & the 33 I kept.
Frederick, I've seen a few beech butts inletted for the stock disc, but I was pretty sure they'd been done well after original manufacture. IIRC they had seen service in the Middle East & the discs bore farsi markings. All of the unadulterated Trials rifles I've seen were stocked in walnut - I suspect it would have been the preferred wood in the inter-war era when they were made. (But that's just my suspicion).
ATB
OK, here's pics of mine. Started out with just a barreled receiver with some bits still attached. I think I had 120 bux in it.
Attachment 46448Attachment 46449Attachment 46450Attachment 46451Attachment 46452Attachment 46453https://www.milsurps.com/images/tact...isc/pencil.png
And a few with the scope and bracket. When I rebuilt the rifle, I decided to go with used wood, as the rifle would have seen lots of service. Brand new wood on a used rifle showing metal/finish wear looks like crap.
Attachment 46454Attachment 46455Attachment 46456Attachment 46457
For anyone interested the Rifle I mentioned in post #17, I found the details, the picture below is a pic of a pic form the auction catalogue , the serial number in the catalogue, was A23306, but am sure it was A2306, hard to tell in the pic. scope No 28338 (AK&S)
(And looking at the catalogue and jogging the memory, if anyone has or thinks he has L42 (serial No 3647 and overstamped B119474) then you have the remains of a No4T but certainly not a L42.)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a65eb9ad-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01534-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff050-1.jpg
All this time and I still don't have any good overall shots! Maybe it's time to go afield with it for a few days.
I have one, listed in this thread https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=43672
It is a trials T conversion, but was then FTR'd and has a new barrel (Faz). It has an original scope mount, but not the one that was originally with the rifle, and has a "scrubbed" scope on it. Also has had a cutoff reinstalled on it (the wrong one). If I can find a decent set of post WWII Faz wood I will put it to a standard #4 configuration as suggested in the last post of my thread. So, a Trials T survivor, but modified.
Ed
I wonder what is more rarer now, No4T conversions of Trials rifles or standard Trials Rifles.
Hi Simon,
I'm speaking from memory of the 'accepted' figures; IIRC I think the total Trials rifles was about two & a half thousand, the figure for conversions being given as 1403. This would suggest a little more than half of the total production were converted to sniper configuration.
ATB
I have one as well. Serial number A0972 built in 1933. It's a very honest and original, (well used), rifle but with mismatch telescope and bracket.
Here is the 4T Trails converted to L42 that Peter mentioned! 1933 dated, then 2 major conversions, 1st to T spec in 1941? then to L42 spec in 1971! Still with original front pad too!
Attachment 46474Attachment 46475Attachment 46476
Where does one get the correct screws for the sniper pads these days? by correct I mean the right material. here in the US of A SARCO is selling the screws, but they are some modern made cadnium plated crap, or so I am told.
Dunk them in acid or bead blast the cad plate off. A mild acid should shift cadmium
Battery acid will shift it in minutes - as will acaetic if my chemistry is still sound! But you'll often find that cad plate hides a brass screw!
Here are my two a '31 and '33. From my observations in collecting Trials No. 4's finding an non-T converted trials in much, much harder. I have been on the hunt for a long time with still no luck.....
That one of Lances is interesting because the original spec said something similar to '.....in recognition of its change to its telescope role, the letter T will be added to and alongside the rifle designation' And there it is.
Later of course the spec was followed and the letter T was stamped 'alongside the rifle designation' on the bodyside. This was the only time that the bodysiode was stamped. The b utt socket could be re-stamped but the body-side was always engraved. In UK service anyway!
BritishFasteners.com was where I found the screws for my repro build. They were cadmium plated but as Peter stated a mixture of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar removed the plating and left a bluable steel fastener.
This rifle was purchased from Val Forgett after he had sold most of the L42 rifles he obtained from Britain. He had retained it for the markings and that it was still painted in its working colors. The vertical rack shows trials No.4 (T) rifles as noted by the visible presence of magazine cut off knobs. Hopefully these might be of interest.
Attachment 46480Attachment 46481Attachment 46482Attachment 46483
Thanks a lot for that breakeyp and XL39 - loving those L42 from trials Ts - you don't get much rarer than that! Surely they'll be high up there in that most expensive Lee Enfields thread discussion - not that you'll ever find one for sale.
Bit of an odd paint scheme on the last one - what would be the thinking behind that? Looks a bit shiny for a service camouflage job.
I can think of at least three that turned up in BC/WA. I owned two of them. Knew someone else with two that he sold south of the 49th. They were probably found out here originally. I've found bits of a trials No4 in a friend's parts stock, so that's another one that was probably made into a target or hunting rifle decades ago. Stuff is around.
Here's a nice picture from the IWM to look at anyway. LCpl. A.P. Proctor, 56th Div. Italy, 1943. Notice the cutoff is still fitted.
Attachment 46500
.....and it's fully cocked! (Am I allowed to say things like that on this forum??).
That's in case a safety Nazi shows up. Makes quicker work of 'em.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Cutoff open so can dispatch the first ten quickly & efficiently.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
http://s748.photobucket
Hi All,
This is my 1931 trials T which as I understand spent the war in Canadian hands and was FTR'd in 45.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that Pauls ex trials L42 left service in the green as shown. I say this because - and I know Tankie and Skippy will agree here - but when equipment such as the L42 is returned to Ordnance, it was returned via what we call and RSSD because in this case, it wasn't obsolete, but OBSOLESCENT and destined as War Reserve Stores for 10 years. That is why that had a programme to rebuild them and indeed, procured more parts such as brackets, eye caps and fore-ends (that were even more dire than the originals!) plus some other parts of the CES. When they've been through the RSSD they go back into War Stores, Reserve Stores or Mobilisation stocks. And it is the job of the examiners (and Ivan Cooper, kinown as Ivan the terrible, was one of the small arms examiners) there to ensure that when they go back on the shelf so to speak, that they are in serviceable or EMER condition.
And green paint ain't! I think that the paint is someones afterthought. That's only my personal opinion based on absolutely nothing more than experience.
But if we didn't have these checks, you would end up getting supplied from Ordnance with someones returned absolutely worn out trash. Mind you, that happened occasionally too, mainly with vehicles!
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5cec29cb-1.jpg
---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------
Hooooooorah, there's my Trials T!!!!
---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------
Hooorah!!!!! there's my Trials T!!!
The best prize MUST be the one at the top. But I'd move that S&B-L13 scope forwards if I were you. Or your eye backwards........
Peter,
My heart got to racing as well after seeing that L96 in the picture. I am still on the hunt!! Patience!!
Brian B
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5355ab6f-1.jpgThis is the wrist of my trials T. The 1931 date and the FTR stamp is illustrated nicely.
Mmmmmmm. Just looking through the threads and noticed BigDukes two posts, #17 & #30. The serial number mentioned is catalogued as A23306, my rifle has been double struck and reads A23306. The woodwork also looks different, however it would appear to be the same rifle???????
Confused .com!
Comments please.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b88d14b5-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by chosenman
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpscfa7-1.jpg
A quick mild enhancement of the photo in bigduke6's Post #30. ETA: Maybe! P'bucket isn't cooperating again!
As far as your rifle being the same, it wouldn't be the first time one has been "restored" a bit. And if it is the same, it's probably a good thing as the forestock above is for a No.4 Mk.2.
Just had the old girl out and compared the front pad screws which are in the exact same position and the features just visible on the wrist band in the catalogue pic do correspond with the markings on my rifle. I think its fair to say it is the same rifle. I would be worried it was a dudd had I not purchased it from Fulton's of Bisley.
Certainly had a makeover since I last saw it (would say it was for the better), I know the scope can went missing at the time, cant remember the scope but IIRC was a bit worse for wear also, (not like the condition of the one pictured)
I was more interested in the Knock up L42 at the time, thats quite easy to spot as it had a hole in the butt socket (left side) shame really as someone at some time has carved up a No4T to produce a .......... I guess this may have been rebuilt back to a No4T since the auction, or even is now a L42 sporting the correct engraving etc ?
Hi Geoff,
Sorry to hijack the thread but just wondered if you had any luck with pictures of the No3MkI(T) you planned to view?
Cheers,
Simon.
FTR marks seem to be of British origins. (Not so much Canadian, but is found on Australian rebuilds) And aren't common until well after WWII it seems. Early Post-WWII overhauls seem to just have the date like so: '46. Nothing that I've read, just something that crops up all the time. And subject to public ridicule if proven wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenman
Simon, couldn't get away from work, but something else they had, caught my eye and cant imagine a retired Armourer using them (PM sent) I spoke to DRP, and he seems to think it may of done the rounds here and there.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon
Don't think that there's anything totally unusual about serial numbers being overstruck. We'd do it if the need arose. I saw a No4T not long ago with an overstruck BSA number of R-33XXXX that was clearly (or not so clearly) but originally R-32XXX.
If you COULD identify an indistinguishable or illegible number using the master/QM's WOCS list then all the better otherwise you had to get a new number allocated from a special security office somewhere and these were in the ZZXXXX or SA-year- AXXXX range and that really was a pain!
I know I blame them for everything, but Fazakerley were always the worst offenders with their No4's, Sten Mk2's and 5's and Sterling L2's. Mind you, BSA No4's weren't masters of perfection.....
Like Jmoore, just wonder what gave the impression it was in Canadian hands ?Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenman
The bolt has the Canadian "C" with a broad arrow engraved and the case which is a converted Bren case has the same acceptance mark stamped on one end. ????
Bolt may of been fitted at any time, as for the box, there was no box in the auction (none in the description in the catalogue and none that I could see), it should of had the scope can this was in the catalogue correction sheet, but it had gone AWOL at the time of sale.
Description below,
Lot 454. A SCARSE .303 Cal. No4T bolt action Sniper Rifle. serial No A23306. Standard specifications. The action having fitted side mounts for the No32 scope. The strap marked Enfield No4 Mk1 T, the butt stock with correct cheek piece. Grade 2 plus. Brl.25 ins. NB If the scope can, can be found will be included.
Small strip of paper (corrections) in the catalogue, had the scope details etc,
Lot 454 Complete with its original scope marked - Tel. Stg. No32 Mk111 OS 2039 A,
AK&S No 28338 1945 In its original green painted steel case complete with tools.
The scope case never appeared it may of been found later? at the start of the bidding he said it hadn't been found.
I,m sure one of them yours or the L42 repro had the scope covers (which were or seemed original)
Hope this helps.
Thanks Bigduke, Interesting trail in the rifles history and I don't suppose i'll ever unravel its 82 year journey. All said and done someone has done a fine job of restoration and I can confirm the rifle shoots very well. The way I see it is as long as the markings on the wrist are authentic, which I believe they are then I'm a very lucky boy to have a no4 T rifle with a prefix letter "A" serial number, not many of them around whatever the condition.
Two things you mention, it shoots well and your happy, cant say more than that.
To be honest when I first saw it, I thought it may of gone for a lot cheaper than it did, and plus the fact I don't know my arse from my elbow when it comes to any of the sniper stuff, Just What I,ve learnt from the knowledgeable few here and a few books, the only thing that concerned me was the double strike of the T, I know Peter mentions it above regarding the serial numbers, but being a Enfield built rifle and the conversion being done there I'd of thought it would have been struck with a bit more care ? Just my take on it at the time.
There was another Trials rifle, but a standard No4 , that was a real nice example which I compared with yours, only other thing was a No1 MkV which I,ve a soft spot for, that was a excellent example ( best I,ve seen) but at the time my plastic was bent to the max and the daughter had not long arrived .........
Bigduke,
When was this auction?
Scotarms Wednesday 23rd May 2012, I only went in to look at some barrels and have a nose at your rifle plus the others I mentioned, I did pick something up for Warren....
Mmmmmmm, wonder if Fulton's bought it and did the revamp? I bought it in June 2012.
I was watching this one, but it quickly ran up in price. I was being greedy since I already have the one Trials T.
ENFIELD NO. 4 MK1 T BRITISH SNIPER BOLT ACTION | Proxibid Auctions
Hope the link works.
Brian B
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
Bish bosh - that's a quick turnaround.Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenman
Great Thread
I have been following the No.4 Mark1 Trials rifles in threads, books etc. for a while. I note
any details including serial numbers that come up. I addition to the serials numbers in
this thread for those converted to Snipers, some of which are new to me, my list has
others: A507, 1933; A0987; A0356; A2200; A0916; A0783, 1933; & A2245.
John
A0744 was another.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-24.jpg
What a cool thread
:D
thanks everyone...!
There is now one of the No. 4 T trials rifle being auctioned on gunbroker: Rare Enfield No.1 Mk 4 Sniper Trials Rifle s/Nice : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com
Well, the description isn't quite accurate. It says all numbers match, but the scope number clearly doesn't match the number on the wrist, which looks from the photos to have been restruck at some point. Scope couldn't be original anyway, as it's a 1945 date. Not that it couldn't have been replaced in service. Nice looking matching Enfield though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Promo
Ed
Not the original forend (unless its fitted with a C pattern forend) or front handguard either, trials forends are very distinctive, fatter and straight in front of the trigger guard! Trials handguards also have brass domed rivets in the caps too!
With a bleedin' SMLE mag in it no less!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk VII
Looks like it's time for a spreadsheet giving more details, such as serial numbers on brackets and scopes, buttstocks etc.
Pics aren't great for telling for sure but I suspect the butt is probably the only original piece of wood on it.
Surprised nobody has yet commented on the foresight protector!
Having picked it to pieces, it is still a Trials No4 (T) all the same. Like most it has clearly had a checkered career.
My head is throbbing from all this reading tonight. Never a dull moment here.
Thank you gentlemen.
I keep finding trials rifles in odd corners. This one came from India by way of Springfield Sporters . Interestingly, it kept the wasp waist front sight protector and the unique ball detent rear sight.
Attachment 46745Attachment 46746Attachment 46747Attachment 46748Attachment 46749
Didn't bother to look at the GB photos till now, but what caught my eye was the chopped objective lens sunshade. Still trying to figure that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
I'm sure you're right that it's been restocked as that is no Model C forend. N92 bracket is obviously not original.
Interesting how the '2' in the original scope number was struck upside down and not corrected.
So the Indians didn't grind the Royal Cypher off in all cases then. Or could it be that Pakistan and India had different policies on that? Or was the "Ishapore screw" only found on Indian rifles?Quote:
Originally Posted by breakeyp
I can only speak of the two or three dozen or so 4T's I've seen that went to India, & all of the rifles that remained in Mk1 guise also retained their original receiver markings, though often augmented with a crudely handstamped going over of the 'No4 Mk1' on the receiver side-wall. The scrubbed rifles were all Mk1/2 conversions. It's logical I suppose, if you're stripping the rifle right down to braze the Mk2 trigger plate onto it, to go the whole hog. Of course, this is just anecdotal observation & might not hold true for all - but it does for those I've seen or owned personally. Afraid I don't know what Pakistan's policy was......
ATB
Found another Trials No.4 Mk1(T) that has been to India. As with the other one I have pictured, it has the original rear sight and front sight ears, transverse screw in fore stock. The socket has been dusted with little original markings remaining. The barrel is dated '30 with Axxxx serial number. The actual numbers are punched out. A1655 might be the true serial number.
I looked in every corner of my house too and found not one Trials T, just empty beer cans. Thanks for the pics.
I got one. It has ROF 41 20908A on the socket.
Was not a sniper though.
John here's my Trials number to add to your list, It's still in all original Trials configuration with up grades or added stamps, "T" "TR" etc. and has all matching except the MkII scope and bracket. Also it's missing the cutoff but still has an early MkVI Enfield magazine.Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyFours
Attachment 46823
You have a special serial number rifle that is not normally seen. The A suffix indicates the gun was made with non standard parts and was to alert the repairman that extra effort was required to fix it. The trials guns under discussion were only made in the early 1930's to 1935 and were serial numbered with a A prefix. You gun is a little late.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldhound
Darn it, I should check what I write before I post it as that should say with "NO" up grades or added stamps, "T" "TR" etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg
I remember the thread about oldhound's rifle. A fairly good read so here's the link:Quote:
Originally Posted by breakeyp
magazine cutoff
Brian B:
Your mailbox is full. Please clear some space old chap!
I have a 1931 Trials No 4 T SN A 1989 that was F.T.R.'d and is stamped "F.T.R." and "TR" in the same places your 1931 Trials No 4 T SN A 1582 was. Does yours have the "T" stamp on the left side of the receiver where later No. 4 rifles had their make. model and year marked?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B
So, when did the system start staking the screws in the bases?
Cleaned out my inbox. Didn't realize it was so full. I will see if I can get to the rifle over the weekend and take a close look at it. If I remember correctly, it has the "T" on the receiver wall.
Stay tuned,
Brian
This is a double post, but I think it needs to be here as well
So the only things we can definitely say are: most of the trials No4s appear to have been converted, but definitely not all.
I finally started a spreadsheet in Excel and have about 30 rifles recorded so far, 6 are not converted to No4(T).
Maybe it can be posted somewhere it is visible to members only Badger? (There are issues around confidentiality I suppose, though the initials and monikers of owners can easily be removed as well.)
Photos were shown early in this thread of a Trials No. 4 MK. I converted into a sniper rifle and on display in the national Army Museum in New Zealand. I wrote to the museum and here is what they kindly responded with. Their answers are between the >> and <<
RESEARCH QUESTIONS:
1. What is the serial number of the rifle? E.g. A 1989 (Note that there is a space between the A and numbers) >> A 0789 <<
2. What is the year of manufacture on the rifle? If a Trials No. 4 MK. I then it would be 1931 or 1933 usually (the last digit sometimes being over-stamped) >> 1933 <<
3. Serial number of the telescope >> 6212 <<
4. Model of Telescope. If the scope model final digit is covered by the bracket, the OS. Number will tell us which mark it is. >> No.32 Mk. I <<
5. Maker of scope (if known) >> W . Watson & Son <<
6. What number(s) if any are stamped into the top of the small of the grip? This was where they marked the serial number of the scope. Numbers for any previous scopes were X or barred out. >> 6212 <<
7. The facility doing the conversion placed their mark. This one likely has a tiny Enfield examiner's stamp on top of the front scope pad rather than the 1/4" high Holland and Holland "S51" stamp found on the underside of the butt on most No. 4 MK. I (T) rifles. >> Enfield <<
"This Weapon was one of two given to the NZ Army by Maj General Bernard Freyberg VC, GCMG, KBE, DSO for use by the NZ Army. It was decided by Army HQ that they would be best utilised by the School of Infantry. When they were made obsolete with the into of the C3 P-H these No.4 MkI (T) rifles were made into Sniper Cse ["Course" presumably] Trophies. The National Army Museum rescued them from destruction after the then Chief of Army directed that all Trophy Weapons be destroyed in the early 90’s for “security reasons”"
Terrence Seymour,
AC Weapons and Ammunition,
National Army Museum,
Waiouru,
New Zealand
Information from his emails responding to Colin M. Stevens