1915 MKIII ShtLE questions

Good day everyone,

This is my first post and to be honest my first day of getting into old/military rifles. I recently helped out a friend on a farm in northern canada and as a thanks he gave me an old 1915 MKIII ShtLE made by Enfield in England as the stamps all indicate. However as I have attempted to learn more about it I have found that this gun is a bit more unique or at least less talked about then the average military Enfield. This I believe is a civilian sporter... however am having a hard time finding information if anyone has any info i would love to hear about it... I have to admit, this whole historical gun collecting is very addictive...

Fly4life: Looks like a normal military No. 1 MkIII (Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield) that's been sporterized. If the barrel is still full length it might be worth restoring as the WW1 SMLE's are getting pretty pricey in Canada (a MkIII in not particularly stunning shape is currently advertised for $2,300 on a major sellers site). How's the bore and does the number on the bolt match the action body/ barrel?

Ridolpho

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Nk9mYxe3-1.jpg
Originally looked something like this picture, until it was sporterized. I bought one similar to yours (BSA) at Canadian tire when I was 15 for about $60 -they very common then, and a popular hunting rifle- almost everyone had one. There some good books that describe the history of this venerable rifle -interesting reading . When sporterized the original stock was cut off and reshaped at about the first band binding the forestock to the upper stock. Be careful they are addictive!

I would like to be the first to welcome you AND your Lee-Enfield to the forum! Welcome aboard!

What you have, friend, is not a scarce civilian sporter, but something which is much more significant and vastly more interesting: you have a genuine First World War combat rifle - the toughest ever made - which went through BOTH World Wars before it was retired and sold off as surplus and only THEN was stripped and made into a sporting rifle. The rifle brings with it its entire history in outline form; this is all in those cryptic little markings which you have so nicely photographed. Let's take a look at some of them.

To begin with, the markings on the Butt Socket you have already remarked upon. They are the BASIC information about your rifle but they are also proof that this was a military piece; a commercial Sporter would NOT have the Royal Cypher on it (the Crown and GR) because that only went onto rifles which were built for His Majesty's military service. It was, as you know, built in 1915, so it is now 98 years old (happy birthday!) and it was built at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, which is where the entire modern age of technology was born: right in that one factory. It was the first factory in the world to be able to turn out a complex piece of equipment (in this case a rifle) which was 100% interchangeable...... and do it with machine tools. When built, it conformed to the Sealed Pattern for the Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle, Mark III, which means that it was built with a drift-adjustable rear sight, full wood, Magazine Cutoff and a set of Volley Sights, all of which have disappeared in the following years. If you can find the parts, you can restore this one to its original glory OR you can restore it as what it turned out to be in later years, which would have been a Mark III* (Mark Three Star) which never had the Star banged into it. Either will be correct, depending on period. Either way, with 17 inches of Wilkinson steel on the front end, you have the most brutally-efficient battle rifle ever made, anywhere, any time.

The ENGLAND on the left side of the Butt Socket would have been applied after the Second World War, when the rifle was sold as surplus.

The markings on the Chamber are an interesting mixture and tell you a lot. For one thing, it appears that your rifle had a complete rebuild with a naw military (the Arrow) barrel in 1918, which is when the more-delicate original rear sight would have been changed-out. The ".303" 2.222" 18.5 TONS/" square" was applied post-World War 2 when the rifle was exported from England. These markings tell you the bore diameter, the length of the casing and the working pressure of normal ammunition for the rifle, along with the assurance that it was TESTED for this pressure. The BNP and Crown tells you that this work was done in Birmingham..... but the rifle was built originally just outside of London, which is where the original MILITARY proofs were marked: the little crowned crossed flags and P.

If you want to see what your rifle was like the day it was built, there is a photo "tour" with about a zillion pictures in the Military Knowledge Library on THIS forum. There is ALSO a photo "tour" of a later rifle, which is how yours ended up.

Original 1915 rifles in ANY condition are scarce in this country. Production was not as high as it would be in later years..... and many, many rifles were lost, captured, scrapped, destroyed during the 3 years following being made. And then this whole process was repeated, 20-odd years later, when the old rifles were hauled out of storage and expected to serve for another 6-1/2 years of war. Very few survive today. You are a lucky guy.

So, what you have is a very REAL chunk of HISTORY. Think of almost ANY battle of EITHER World War...... and there is a chance that your rifle was THERE.

It doesn't get much more REAL than that.

And a nice point is that, while you re looking for the parts to restore it, the old girl will keep your deepfreeze filled. The old .303 will flatten anything in North America with 1 shot.

Your are a Lucky Guy!

I see a 1915 dated barrel with what looks like a 1925 repair date on the butt socket, and possibly a 193? date below that, with post-WWII UK proof marks, so it's not one someone brought home from the wars anyway. I could be wrong about the inspection dates though; didn't check the reference books!;)

Not that many 1915 MkIIIs left in decent shape now. If the barrel is very good it might be worth restoring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smellie

I would like to be the first to welcome you AND your Lee-Enfield to the forum! Welcome aboard!

What you have, friend, is not a scarce civilian sporter, but something which is much more significant and vastly more interesting: you have a genuine First World War combat rifle - the toughest ever made - which went through BOTH World Wars before it was retired and sold off as surplus and only THEN was stripped and made into a sporting rifle. The rifle brings with it its entire history in outline form; this is all in those cryptic little markings which you have so nicely photographed. Let's take a look at some of them.

To begin with, the markings on the Butt Socket you have already remarked upon. They are the BASIC information about your rifle but they are also proof that this was a military piece; a commercial Sporter would NOT have the Royal Cypher on it (the Crown and GR) because that only went onto rifles which were built for His Majesty's military service. It was, as you know, built in 1915, so it is now 98 years old (happy birthday!) and it was built at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, which is where the entire modern age of technology was born: right in that one factory. It was the first factory in the world to be able to turn out a complex piece of equipment (in this case a rifle) which was 100% interchangeable...... and do it with machine tools. When built, it conformed to the Sealed Pattern for the Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle, Mark III, which means that it was built with a drift-adjustable rear sight, full wood, Magazine Cutoff and a set of Volley Sights, all of which have disappeared in the following years. If you can find the parts, you can restore this one to its original glory OR you can restore it as what it turned out to be in later years, which would have been a Mark III* (Mark Three Star) which never had the Star banged into it. Either will be correct, depending on period. Either way, with 17 inches of Wilkinson steel on the front end, you have the most brutally-efficient battle rifle ever made, anywhere, any time.

The ENGLAND on the left side of the Butt Socket would have been applied after the Second World War, when the rifle was sold as surplus.

The markings on the Chamber are an interesting mixture and tell you a lot. For one thing, it appears that your rifle had a complete rebuild with a naw military (the Arrow) barrel in 1918, which is when the more-delicate original rear sight would have been changed-out. The ".303" 2.222" 18.5 TONS/" square" was applied post-World War 2 when the rifle was exported from England. These markings tell you the bore diameter, the length of the casing and the working pressure of normal ammunition for the rifle, along with the assurance that it was TESTED for this pressure. The BNP and Crown tells you that this work was done in Birmingham..... but the rifle was built originally just outside of London, which is where the original MILITARY proofs were marked: the little crowned crossed flags and P.

If you want to see what your rifle was like the day it was built, there is a photo "tour" with about a zillion pictures in the Military Knowledge Library on THIS forum. There is ALSO a photo "tour" of a later rifle, which is how yours ended up.

Original 1915 rifles in ANY condition are scarce in this country. Production was not as high as it would be in later years..... and many, many rifles were lost, captured, scrapped, destroyed during the 3 years following being made. And then this whole process was repeated, 20-odd years later, when the old rifles were hauled out of storage and expected to serve for another 6-1/2 years of war. Very few survive today. You are a lucky guy.

So, what you have is a very REAL chunk of HISTORY. Think of almost ANY battle of EITHER World War...... and there is a chance that your rifle was THERE.

It doesn't get much more REAL than that.

And a nice point is that, while you re looking for the parts to restore it, the old girl will keep your deepfreeze filled. The old .303 will flatten anything in North America with 1 shot.

Your are a Lucky Guy!

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Wow, exciting.... This rifle is an amazing shot... Blows all mu buddies rifles out of the water that are brand new with scopes... They have a hard time shooting the same groupings.... I also opened up the but stock hole and found a survival kit with matches ect..... It looks military issued and very very old.... I was very carful with it and put it back in..... Makes me very excited...... A piece of my families history... My great grand parents and their parents all served in the Canadian military...

Well written Smellie if you wern't interested in Lee Enfields before reading your article you sure would be after reading it. :thup:

as stated above it looks like this old girl soldiered on past its world war I initial service , thus it most likely became a mkIII* by default [although its not marked so] you should be able to readily put it in proper shape as that with little effort ,

if you want to try to return it back to its origins you must look harder and spend a little more but i think that doable as well , here are the main bits you will be seeking out should you want it back to 1915 nick ,

as said its marked correctly -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5bfb8583-1.jpg


the adjustable rear sight [mine was pinned , but matches so i left it] -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...948ec3d4-1.jpg

the rear volley sight arm -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...80984152-1.jpg

the muzzle end bit with piling swivel -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...32096c0a-1.jpg

the forearm with front volley dial and pointer -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3be53581-1.jpg

If barrel is not cut, it is worth returning to military trim.
Here are some helpful web sites;

SMLE No. 1 MK III

Collecting and Shooting the Enfield No. 1 Mk III - Rifle Disassembly/Reassembly

Collecting and Shooting the Enfield No. 1 Mk III - Bolt Disassembly/Reassembly


D. :cheers:

That rifle should only be returned to No1Mk3 trim second time round. No volley sight, no windage rear sight, no piling swivel, cut off only. That is how a general service rifle would have been sold out of service from Australia or Britain.

I'm with Bindi2 on this one. As surpmil pointed out from the markings on the left side of the butt socket, this 1915 rifle went through ordnance twice in the inter-war period, so even if the volley sights survived to 1918 it's unlikely they would have been present by the time it was sold out of service. I'd go for a nice 'simplified' Mk3 forend (cut-off slash but no volley sight machining), cut-off, & I'd be flexible on a windage rear-sight. In theory, in reworked form it probably shouldn't have one, but I've seen lots of rifles that still retained theirs, so would leave it to the OP's preference. Personally I like windage adjustable rear sights & tend to (re-)fit them to early Mk3 rifles where possible.

Merry Christmas one & all.

ATB.

I'm not sure that I would agree lads. I've had a few rifles with returned to stores dates on the butt from the 40's that retained the matching volley sight forend.

i tend to agree with homer , not necessarily for his exact reason , but im happy to have learned something new from him today regarding the longevity of the volley forend ,

its my opinion that the rifle belongs to him and he can do as he pleases , i was simply providing information , and while i tend to agree with you-all here in the purist sense , im just happy when someone takes the time to restore or preserve , far too much sporting going on and if truth be known , i find it far better to return it to what its marked as and i would rater see it returned to its original state than turned into a faux "T" just my 2 cents here ,

The rifle has a Mk3* forend and no returned to stores marks. I am very happy the OP wants to restore the rifle just dont make it some thing it would have not finished its service life as. It also has a Mk3* rear sight.