New production Lee Enfield N0.4 Mk1 barrels

New production Lee Enfield N0.4 Mk1 barrels

Good morning all,
I have emailed back and forth with Criterion Barrels here in the United States regarding producing some barrels for the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1. When I contacted them, it was in regard to this posting on their web page:

Criterion Goes Global

Below is a copy of the email that I received this morning. If Criterion receives more requests, we could finally start seeing some new barrels





Good afternoon,

The No4 Mk1 barrel has still not yet been manufactured or released, so no price point is currently available. I will bring it up again this week at the production meeting, but at this time the release date is unknown. The best ways to track new product releases are to sign up for our newsletter or follow us on Facebook.

Josh Buege

CRITERION BARRELS
W172 N13050 Division Rd.
Germantown, WI 53076
ph: (262) 628-8749
fax: (262) 997-1137
contact@criterionbarrels.com
Criterion Barrels

This has been an ongoing project with them for a couple of years. They even have a couple of my new No. 4 barrels as patterns that I bought years ago before the supply dried up. Just give them time. They are still swamped with orders from the panic caused by the Newtown mess.

Stuart

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gyro

New production Lee Enfield N0.4 Mk1 barrels

Good morning all,
I have emailed back and forth with Criterion Barrels here in the United States regarding producing some barrels for the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1. When I contacted them, it was in regard to this posting on their web page:

Criterion Goes Global

Below is a copy of the email that I received this morning. If Criterion receives more requests, we could finally start seeing some new barrels





Good afternoon,

The No4 Mk1 barrel has still not yet been manufactured or released, so no price point is currently available. I will bring it up again this week at the production meeting, but at this time the release date is unknown. The best ways to track new product releases are to sign up for our newsletter or follow us on Facebook.

Josh Buege

CRITERION BARRELS
W172 N13050 Division Rd.
Germantown, WI 53076
ph: (262) 628-8749
fax: (262) 997-1137
contact@criterionbarrels.com
Criterion Barrels

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If that is the case, I can understand the delay. With the sheer numbers of No.4 Mk1 Lee Enfields out there that have shot out barrels, I can't imagine that there would be a question of a need. My latest No.4 shoots so poorly that all 10 key holed the target at 100 yards and had a grouping of just under 18". I wish at the time I had a bore gauge or at least a .303 bullet with me.

I'mk sure that my views on the 'shot-out-bore' syndrome are well known. We had all manner of bore gauges, leed wear, muzzle wear and so on and on and on plus viewing standards - always a bit subjective in my opinion, but they were there none the less. And these criteria would very often condemn a barrel. But now, the acid test if the gauging or viewing criteria is in doubt is the RANGE test. If it is accurate and can hoid a group as laid down to the EMER standard, then that's good enough.

BUT, you have GOT to use the standard ISSUE spec ammo. No home loads or 'factory' spec ammo from dubious sources. Standard issue NATO ball if it's a Military rifle.

You try some well stored UK Military Mk7 ball Gyro and see how it performs.

I had a No4T with a bore that I couldn't even get a glimmer of a shine out of. Looked like someone had dropped their soup down but it shot perfectly.

As for those poor souls who think that the way to test for a shot out barrel/muzzle is to stick the nose of a round into the muzzle........ Words fail me!

I am one of those poor souls who uses the bullet test! I do have a field gauge for headspace. Myself and most buyers of Enfields don't have the real gauges so when looking at a gun at a gunshow we do what we can to see if the barrel is worn. I know it is not the best but it is what we can do.

I've also dropped off an SMLE barrel as well for them to measure and consider. Their shop is about 15 minutes away from me, so it's easy to drop over.

The ol' round in the muzzle while not the most glorious way to ascertain a barrels wear it is a start for us not so wise or travelled pelicans but it is somewhere to start so I will say if PL did the Mk VII Ball ammo test at the muzzle as an normal person with average firearms knowledge on 2 SMLE or No.4's his choice both of equal external appearances and the following happened in theory mind you.

In rifles not looking down the bore thats for later on this is first up -

A) The projectile inserted into the muzzle carefully and the amount of projie left showing was about a 3/16" gap to the neck of the case.

B) The projectile inserted into the muzzle carefully and the projie dissapeared with the muzzle touching the neck of the case.

And no other looking or poking was done to the rifles A or B based on that hypothetical inspection on visual face value of ones limited knowledge on firearms with no assistance from firearms experts all by ones todd then which rifle would PL buy ! (probably none but we as mere mortals have to try and rely on 2 things our sometimes poor knowledge base when confronted with a find and the integrity of the seller !)

Yes I have been burned so stiff cheese I move on but I can look anyone face to face and say any weapons I sell are functional with no qualms in operation or the way they shoot the only thing is I have only maybe sold 2 rifles as I like keeing all of my toys, I reckon PL has a nice collection that would rival the Smithsonian ? (just a bit of ribbing there as after working on zillions of weapons why would you want to look at another one at home) :dancingbanana:
Ahhh its all good in milsurps land

I bring one of each caliber to a Fun show, it's the best way available to me to sorta check the barrel isn't completely shot out.

Just a gueery on those replacement barrels are they going to have the bayonet lugs on them, I am not real certain but I think MAB do the No.4 barrels in the parkerised without the bayonet lugs if you want to be semi pure you can have them put on as an extra.
There is another mob doing chrome moly Mk III barrels in stainless thinking of getting one as the standard profiles are hard to come by in any condition I got one complete from Canada 11 years ago but they sure have been scarce on the ground still I reckon theres people in the know that have inklings of where they are.

Years ago in one of our deserts in the West Au here a drilling exploration friend said they lost a drill rod down a hole when outa the blue some bloke rocks up with a bren on the bonnet of his SWB landie apparently WWII stuff was bunkered there and forgotten, do not know how true but a good yarn all the same.
I only managed 1 range session with the Bren and it was hell accurate a very narrow cone of fire and proportedly had the nice act of dragging you forward still it was very nice to shoot even on full auto just good old weapons manufacture :super:

Here's a better alternative to the 'nose-of-a-round' trick and a good way forward. Ask your local machinist if he'll machine up a small, say 5" or so length of stainless steel bar .307" diameter for half its length. This MUST NOT enter the muzzle by more than 1/4". You could ask him to machine the other end to .308" and this end MUST NOT enter the rifled area of the leed by more then 1/4". Some of you will/might agree with this simple and cheap ploy on the basis that this is a) what the bible says and b) a slightly more accurate method of gauging muzzle wear that relying on the dubious curvature of a ball round/projectile to indicate, well......, anything really in my humble oipinion for what it's worth. And c) you've also got a sort-of substitute tapered .308" No2 SM-126 gauge.

If you want the other gauge limits while you're there, then a .301" MUST run freely. The No1 rifle allowed a .303" to run but this was changed later to standardise the bore criteria for the No1 and 4 rifles post war.

Like I say, or humbly suggest, then if your rifle - or the one you're looking to buy fails these tests then range/accuracy test it. It could be perfect. Anyone need to know the accepted accuracy criteria?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Just a gueery on those replacement barrels are they going to have the bayonet lugs on them, I am not real certain but I think MAB do the No.4 barrels in the parkerised without the bayonet lugs if you want to be semi pure you can have them put on as an extra.
8><----

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MAB is now TSE engineering and a barrel off them and getting it fitted will make your eyes water. Its also 6 groove and yes lacks the baynot lugs, they will also do it in SS for $150AU more.

I was quoted $950NZD+ for a moly barrel.

:eek:



regards

I see that Lothar Walther are doing replacement barrels for Model 98 Mausers and g96 Swedish Mausers for $270 US. Have just sent them an e mail asking if they have plans for SMLE and No 4 barrels.

As I understood things, the bayonet lug was to be included with the new production barrels. One thing that just came to mind was if the barrel would be unfinished. I don't recall any information on that.

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 AM ----------

Peter,
I'm not even sure where to begin to find UK Military Mk7 ball ammo around here. The ammo I tested with was Prvi Partizan Ammunition 303 British 174 Grain Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail. I had heard that people have had good results with this ammunition in their rifles compared to other manufacturers ammo.

Thanks Peter I will go an see my local machinist and have one turned up but we are not realy fortunate in our state in W.A with very few gun shows and super strict gun laws the toughest in Australia so it is like buy one off used guns from the eastern states or wait till we have the Cannington shows 2 times a year even then you are dam lucky to even see a firearm for sale.
And allot of gun shops do not carry the ol'girls now it is sorta from the club scenes you acquire them and then some of the fun and mystery is gone as you know the bloke and the weapon so not much adoo there you may have even shot it so theres even less mysterious discoveries to be made.

I went to a dealer probably 4 years ago and I knew a Mk III had been sitting in the same spot in the corner for like 30+ years I had seen it as a 14 year old so I asked Tony would he sell it he said yes but only for a $1,000.oo.
When you think I picked up my 5 MD '16 Lithgow Mk III with mag cut off I know I think they were deleted prior to this but mine is A star stamped for only $100 you gotta be kidding for that price Tony.
(I have put more $'s into the '16 with a correct mag & A star stamped dumbell safety spring and catch '16 5 MD '07 Lithgow + scabbard and have just purchased a Wright Black '16 sling so she's all done....yay) :dancingbanana:

I will say one thing for all old and new to milsurps members or moderators the advice offered by some of the well trained and experienced armourers like Peter Laidler is not often freely given as it is from him which shows an underlying passion for things to be just so and so they shall Peter 3 cheers for you bloke...... :clap: :beerchug:

Gyro you are better off loading the gear yourself I was using some 67 POF Mk VII gear and trully I thought I was back in a civil war with a delayed firing sequence you know click, bang and sh*te exiting from the barrel like confetti and the exclamation now where did that go, I tried it for like 50 rounds and gave up they are all gone now never to be used again.
I also boiled the barrel after them not knowing what the Indian manufacturer used for primers........
Sellior Bellot has absolute crud brass head seps after 1 reload and not just the one shooter at our club as they all could not have had large chambers I had similar fate with the greek brass I just use the R.P stuff 5-6 reloads is about it and they are well priced.



Besides some of the Mk VII stuff is collectable like MW 42 (Welshpool W.Australia) is fairly hard to find the Mk VI stuff whilst I would not shoot it is getting up in price as well per round.

I use R.P brass too and get great case life. And I find the Sierra 174 Gn HPBT matchkings are great at the range. I've had good results with Hornady 174Gn FMJ's also.
I would love to source some prefit No4 barrels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert303

I see that Lothar Walther are doing replacement barrels for Model 98 Mausers and g96 Swedish Mausers for $270 US. Have just sent them an e mail asking if they have plans for SMLE and No 4 barrels.

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Lothar Walther .303 barrel blanks (machining for a Nr. 4 barrel would be extra)

Lothar Walther

I do not know how the future will pan out for mil shooters as the cache of original barrels starts to dry up its not panic buying its just the stocks are running out and those that have the gear are keeping them for the future. I have enough for my son who is 14 y/o to continue for his shooting career but a lot of years in the making. I managed 10 years ago to get a complete Mk III standard profile barrel but they are pretty scarce now. It has been an epic and endless hours trolling sites and getting into trouble not having a 709B form for that barrel that was a close squeek but all was good in the end. So I really do not know what the future holds for the 303 's or the K-98's etc as we are just going to have to go with non genuine parts to continue having our fun.
I saw an unfired Mk III H barrel $450.00AU and one with 50 rounds through it H Mk III for $300.00 and the prices of stocks and ancillary parts has skyrocketed I am so glad I started a while ago hedging though the woods are the issue if you want genuine and have a full wallet.......

Keep the faith and enjoy milsurps as I sure am......

We can only hope that someone can persuade a barrel manufacturer that it is worthwhile making exact replica barrels. In theory this should not be too difficult BUT when it comes to putting up the money the problems start. I am now off in search of drawings for a SMLE +/ No4 barrel or a shot out barrel to see if anything can be done. However NO promises and don't hold your breath.

I'm not a production engineer but a Mech Eng....., a sort of everything-thrown-in sort of grad! But to be really honest, in my opinion, making a straightforward No4 barrel is an absolute piece of cake. A REAL doddle once you have a hammered/rifled bore. The thread doesn't need to be indexed......... why? It indexes the knocks form (the KF) and the foresight block and believe me, after re-barrelling hundreds, you'll soon learn that the KF ain't the bee all and end all of, well, anythuing except a tightening mechanism!

This is what you do.......... You make the complete barrel between centres on a CNC copy lathe, as-is but LESS the KF, extractor slot and foresight block band and bayonet lugs (FBB&BL). Then you fit it to the rifle, calculate the underturn, machine/cut the extractor way and approx position of the KF and breech-up tight.

You leave the last 3.5" or so - fron the rear of the FBB&BL forwards .030" undersize and then, when the barrel is breeched up, slide on and soft solder in place a pre-made (or old original) FBB&BL sleeve. Align exactly on glass sheet as per Armourers method of breeching up. Cup-chamfer the muzzle end and that's it.

Well, that;s it in a couple of paragraphs. Obviously there's more to it than that but if you want to complicate it, then feel free but where there's a will, there's ALWAYS a simple way.

Not original with an invisible muzzle sleeve section.........? It's not an original barrel in any case. But better than the scrap heap you took off!

Sounds kind of like this this job of converting a nondescript late US M1903 barrel to an early date. Amazing what you can hide under an upper band!

Attachment 47179Attachment 47180

Of course this one's too skinny for bayonet fighting - but it did shoot OK. (The stub came from a gunshow parts bin for a dollar - must have been a nice barrel before someone lopped it off. Bore was gorgeous.)

For those who don't have a taper turning/ copy attachment but have access to a run of the mill lathe, one option is to step the barrel like the mauser K98, (I,m sure this was to speed up the process in manufacturing in its day)

The other tip given several times by Bruce in Oz , is to use 7.62/ .30 blank, of course this option is for home loaders only. As for bayonet lugs, I,ve never had the order to fix bayonets when at the range.....

Bayonets....., me neither Big Boy but it's the originality feel that is the 'problem', hence the bayonet lugs thing. I made/machined a stepped No5 spec barrel on my little Myford Super 7 for my friends No5 from a 7.62mm L4 Bren barrel. One other thing I did - or didn't do, was to machine the knocks form flat. I left it round/tapered but at the approx position of the KF flat. End milled a 6mm hole, close to the breeching shoulder, approx the depth of the KF flat/lightening recess and then breeched it up using a convenient 'C' spanner (hence the 6mm hole but it could be any convenient size.....) used as a tool for something on the WOMBAT wheel bearing! And he's still shooting it........ In fact I'll be shooting it on Sunday too!

But you could use anything similar, depending on what you have handy. Just saying this to emphasise the point that where there's a will, there's a simple way.

But Parashooters photos do illustrate exactly what I mean about sleeving the complicated muzzle end. And without this BBF&BL palava, the No4 barrel is a simple turning job!

I had a few No4 7.62mm Heavy Barrel Target Rifles, just profiled the barrel on one of them to convert to a Standard No4 but in 7.62, also modified the action to take the 7.62mm Magazine as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon P

I had a few No4 7.62mm Heavy Barrel Target Rifles, just profiled the barrel on one of them to convert to a Standard No4 but in 7.62, also modified the action to take the 7.62mm Magazine as well.

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Good for a .30 M1 Carbine calibre conversion too.

Simon P must know all about that phrase '....where there's a will, there's an easy way' and putting it into practice. After all, he's got an MG!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Good for a .30 M1 Carbine calibre conversion too.

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I have got one in .30 M1 carbine, its been proofed just need to configure the magazine arrangement. I'm building this one up to look like a No5.

This one came out of an action house and was described as a .303 Barrelled Action & bolt, barrel shortened.

It wouldn't take a .303 cartridge, so I took a chamber cast and it was .30M1, so all the hard work had already been done.

Its now all safely proofed for .30M1

---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Simon P must know all about that phrase '....where there's a will, there's an easy way' and putting it into practice. After all, he's got an MG!

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I don't know about an easy way, just had to change the clutch in the MGB, it was engine out in the end, all because the thrust bearing decided to give up on me.

I seem to recall seeing an advert recently in GunMart from Armalon stating that they are manufacturing No4 barrels with left hand twist rifling. It may have been artistic licence but the pic also showed that the barrel had the bayonet lug too.

Cheers,

Simon.

Peter Sarony (Armalon) is making all types of barrels these are Hammer Forged, they are expensive but you get what you pay for.

Hopefully as the demand picks up the price will come down, the ones I saw did have Bayonet Lugs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon

I seem to recall seeing an advert recently in GunMart from Armalon stating that they are manufacturing No4 barrels with left hand twist rifling. It may have been artistic licence but the pic also showed that the barrel had the bayonet lug too.

Cheers,

Simon.

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Simon, was there any price quoted ?

Don't remember seeing one in the advert.

Cheers,

Simon

The best hope we are going to have to get a barrel manufacturer to start reproducing barrels is to contact them so that they know there is a need and that they can be the first to fulfill that need. With saying that, everyone needs to contact the barrel companies and express their interest that they start making barrels for our barrel shot out Lee Enfields. Let's start here:


CRITERION BARRELS
Josh Buege
W172 N13050 Division Rd.
Germantown, WI 53076
ph: (262) 628-8749
fax: (262) 997-1137
contact@criterionbarrels.com

I have been in touch with Peter Sarony of Armalon and he is making No 4 and SMLE barrels complete with bayonet lugs. He kindly gave me permission to post these photos.
I also reproduce part of his e mail to me (I hope this is allowed and does not breach some rule on advertising):-

STANDARD PRODUCTION BARRELS – RETAIL PRICES INC 20% VAT

Based upon AISI 4140 type carbon alloy steel material. Other materials inc. stainless: POA.


1. REMINGTON 700, SAKO 75 & 85, TIKKA, MAUSER & SIMILAR BARRELS, Armalon Alpha form Varmint profile, standard profiles AR15/AR10 & DERIVATIVES, ENFIELD SMLE & No 4, Enforcer, L39, L42 etc original profiles, complete with standard breech thread, crowned muzzle, standard calibre (short chambered for final headspacing & proofing after fitting to individual rifle action), linished outside diameter, in the white (select applicable length columns as relevant):-

Ex Works price inc VAT

up to 18” up to 26” up to 28”


£ 354.00 £ 397.00 £ 412.00

O.K. Not cheap but at least we know they are available. However with the bayonet lug they cannot be exported to the USA as they are classed as 'Military' items. If any US reader knows otherwise and can point to the right regulations I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear from you.




Attachment 47231Attachment 47232Attachment 47233

Armalon assured me that they could re-barrel my N0. 5 and re-fit the flash eliminator + bayo lug. Expensive ... but it´s only money.

They can be imported to the USA with no problem with the bayonet lug. They are commercial replacements and not military surplus which have been banned since July 2005.

Hello Brian,
Should that be the case could you advise Armalon as you are 1) In the U.S.A. and 2) are in the trade.

Sure, I got a letter for him years ago from BATFE Imports Branch that his scope bases didn't need import licensing for shipment to the USA so he knows who I am. I've imported L96 barrels in the past that were new manufactured by the same maker in Scotland that made the originals for AI with no problems. They just didn't have the military proofs or any other markings on them. Lineage has to be proven by a new commercial invoice from the manufacturer.

Or a BETTER idea..... Someone advise Armalon/Peter that here's a US dealer geared up to import and sell. And sell, they will..........

I'll re post the link to this thread to Armalon. Hopefully he and Brian can work something out. Meanwhile if anyone has a shot out No4 barrel or SMLE barrel I'd be interested in acquiring them.

I've had a few emails with Mr. Sarony since yesterday. I've emailed someone in DC to look into the facts of importability to the USA. Apparently, he's been advised by BATF&E that they won't approve them. My understanding of the rule as written in July 2005 is that military surplus barrels are banned but not new commercial replacements. There are some strange things happening behind the scenes these days to the regulation of the trade so we'll see. Stay tuned.

Brian, Thanks for your efforts any restriction on trade is bad and this looks like blatent 'Protectionism' or stupidity on an individuals part.

I don't think it has anything to do with protectionism. "Stupidity"; well, that's another story!

Brian, believe me........ The US doesn't even start to understand stupidity like we know stupidity here. Have you ever heard of the EU? It's a byeword for REAL stupidity and we pay into it £54 MILLION a DAY!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It's a byeword for REAL stupidity and we pay into it £54 MILLION a DAY!

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Otherwise known as "Classic Stupidity"

Don't worry Peter, our leadership is striving to catch up as quick as possible. The current executive branch think that the European model is the example for all the world to follow. It runs totally detrimental to everything this country is supposed to stand for so go figure. Oops, this is political so I'd better shut up. Everyone should know that I'm an equal opportunity, professional politician hater so ideologues on both sides hopefully won't be offended!

Aparently the attached company are already making SMLE barrels that are the same profile as the original.

Company | truvelo.co.za

Can the USA import from South Africa ?

Yes, I've done many imports from South Africa.

Looks like Criterion is getting close with the No. 4 barrels. There is an update here Lee Enfield No.4 Progress Update.

Won't be long now.

Stuart

The spike bayonet and front sight base look vaguely familiar!

They exist!!

Just got one from Criterion for T&E. Stay tuned later this evening for more info.

Yep,

Lee Enfield No.4 End of Year Progress Update

cool, now to see what the price is here in NZ, suspect it will be a year or more before we see any though, there must be a huge demand in the USA alone.

In there letter to me they stated the first batch of blanks have been prepared and are awaiting the results from the test batch before proceeding with completing them.