1921 Lithgow No. 1 Mk III Unfired

Hi Guys,
Had to finish off my '16 Lithgow with a '16 sling and the correctly star marked dumb bell safety and safety catch components so it is 99.8% completed.
So I dug the '21 Lithgow out of the safe as I had promised the forum to take pics of it.

Anyway short story long,
I purchased this rifle and its serial No. to the rifle 07 1921 Lithgow Bayonet with matching
1921 double stitched Lithgow Scabbard (Pic elsewhere of this pair).

The story I got from the dealer this was unfired from the factory (Proofing and sighting rounds excluded of course) anyways he procured it from a returned soldier.
Rumour had it he was weeding his front garden with the bayonet :yikes: so the dealer asked him a few things and ended up with the rifle and the 07 etc.

So he kept it for @35 years on his rack with the occasional balistol rub down and bore swab (which I continue to do).
I saw it and then began a wait game of 4 years until he decided to start quitting his collection so I snapped this pair up.
I have no idea why the fore woods are in the white but I am not touching them adds to its charm, I have not fired it and the bolt face is unmarked.
You can see the bolt race is not gleaming there is left over gunk on it which I am not going to clean off, on the wrist socket that is my grubby finger mark near the date not pitting.
So it goes to my son on my trip to the great gun range above along with the other 303's I have amassed for him not many but enough to have fun with.
This would be considered a double jewel having the 07 to match dated and numbered to the weapon, and as stated by the previous owner unfired.
Its all I have to go on as the real owner is long dead and there is no wear in the dam thing I mean even the sights slide worm is full of gunk.
It along with my other 2 No.4's and 2 Mk III's the BSA Shirley T will allow my son to hopefully fulfil a long and happy shooting career.

I know there will be personnel that may debunk the fact the rifle is unfired but I am only going on what I have been told and I am not going to strip it down any further than I have just to satisfy the critics.
Sometimes things turn up in our endeavours and you have a find to give back to you all the crappy deals and heartaches from lost causes that crop in our lives chasing the dreams.
:banghead:

Thanks for your time ppl have a good day :wave:

Mate thanks for taking the time to post pictures. It's a very nice looking gun and I won't make any comments regarding the unfired label. The forend and handguards are coachwood so your rifle has had an overhaul or some degree of repairs. I would think it not likely to have had its wood replaced unless its done some work, the question is when was the wood replaced. Can you take a picture or give us a description of the butt. The butt certainly looks well used.

I think also the metal has been refinished so maybe this rifle was refurbished wartime. Does it have a date stamped into the butt like 5/44 or similar?

Hi Homer,
I know the unfired bit would have a few heads going but on the reinforce it is stamped 9 '21 there is also nothing else I can see on it that shouts a full FTR. Only it was in there on 5/44 the other 4 is also stamped on the reinforce so it could be 4MD but unclear
If the rifle and Brl had been fully FTR'ed then it would have a different date on it like my other 1916 which has a '43 brl in it I think but quite understandable.

The front band if EFD but this in the replacement of the fore woods is ok as in an armoury I doubt anything follows its originality. If you look at the action like the bolt racer and where the b-head rail is (I will call it that and suffer no doubt LOL) not even shiny.
Anyway here is the pic of the butt also No.ed to the rifle.

Thanks for the reply, I await the good smacking I will get for calling it a bolt head rail ?? :confused:

Homer are you physic or something is this a significant date 5/44 which my rifle bears for ftr's one needs enlightenment in the quest for knowledge as the bayonet grips have Australia on them which I was told only done if the bayonet went overseas....:dunno:

Not physic but I've had a number of rifles over the years identical to yours that were overhauled around the 5/44. The actions were mostly dated from early 20's and very little was replaced except for the forend. My thoughts were that they were rifles that had had little use, hence retaining the original barrels, but had damaged forends possibly due to not having recoil inserts installed from new. By mid 1944, the production of new rifles was ramping down so perhaps it was a good time to overhaul a few rifles that had minor defects. These are just my thoughts gents.
Apart from the general appearance of your gun, the only indicator that these rifles were refurbished is the date stamped into the butt and it is only a date. Rifles that are stamped FTR, were refurbished between 1950 and 1959/60 and these FTR'd rifles differ in appearance to yours. Most notable difference is , the rifles done in 1944 mostly retained original parts and only those parts that needed replacing were replaced like forends. Rifles that were FTR'd in the 50's were stripped to the action, reparkerised and completely built up into new rifles using new and used parts. Even bolts were replaced in many cases. Old serial numbers on used numbered parts like nosecaps and bolts were scrubbed and renumbered to match the action. I've also seen reused barrels, with old numbers lined out and renumbered. Forends were always new replacements but butts may be new or used. In the case where a used butt was reused, all stamps from the previous rifle were removed and remained bare. The old markings will still be barely visible in nearly all cases. My view is, it is very unlikely a rifle FTR'd between 1950 and 1960 would retain any original parts from new manufacture.
Cinders your rifle may be unfired from its refurbished date, but the fact that it retains the original 1921 dated barrel is not evidence enough that it is unfired. Still plenty of lithgows this vintage and older that retain original barrels. I've had several. Even the grease that may still be present is not an indicator. As Peter mentioned in a recent thread, rifles were prepared for deep storage and thick amounts of cosmolene were applied inside and out. Also had several of those.

So why has the 07 pattern bayonet followed this rifle like a lost puppy as there are so many out there that are mis-matched to the rifle they may be attached to, where as mine goes as far as a 1921 dbl Lithgow scabbard I'm pretty cool with what it is as I have no intention as mentioned trying to finish the fore woods nor shoot it.
Seems strange that it being FTR 'ed that the bayonet should be right by its side right through the armoury and to whatever adventures it got up to in the intervening years, still I reckon under a clear night sky in the NW of W.A around a camp fire dropping back some JD & Coca Cola it will make a good conversation piece that one can conjure all sorts of weird things.
I am just the average person who buys magazines, looks at used guns on line and does not have the resources nor contact or the dealers licence to move in the circles that can give a person the edge in acquiring some really unique pieces.
There are so many of us out there one only has to read the threads in Milsurps as we enthusiasts try to build up a modest collection of firearms no matter what type you like they all have their good and bad points like how many of us have suffered a rim over in a speed shoot I certainly have, still we all enjoy the fun, friendships and heck just going to the range with them is an adventure always take spare parts......:madsmile:

Appreciate the extended input I am not interested in monetary value as I have better toys that shoot pointy things far further and faster than the old girls but there is that oh so lovely sound of the SMLE cycling and stripping a fresh round out of the mag and into the chamber and their over all history through all sorts of conflicts yep there is no better thing for history sake for this Aussie. :beerchug::super:

Cinders your rifle isn't an FTR.

Don't know how rifle and bayonet came together mate. Maybe some bloke 30 years ago was lucky enough to match them up. Seen that happen before. One thing is for certain and that is, your 1921 lithgow didn't leave the factory like that and I just say it as I see it.

Gads I hope it did not leave the factory like that otherwise one could surmise Lithgows QA & QC had done a runner!!!!

The Queensland maple buttstock is the original and the forend and hand guards were replaced in service at some point with coachwood. The QM woodwork wasn't noted for it's inherent strength. The metal looks excellent. It would be Parkerized if it had seen full FTR late or post WWII.

Yes Brian I agree, it would have been parkerised very late in the war of after. Not sure of the process but the metal on this rifle looks refinished as well and is very typical of rifles refurbished at this time.

I think where we are getting confused is with the word "refurbish".
My research finds no mention of weapon refurb. programs prior to 1948 with Lithgows, but there were constant "repair" programs run from 1915 to 1947.
My understanding has always been that the date stamp on the butt was a Repaired-returned to storage stamp, as opposed to the FTR that was marked on the receiver.
The largest repair program was late 1944 to 1947 when the "recaptures" were returned from Malaya and sorted for repair/disposal.
A lot of these rifles were converted to sub calibre, most dated 1940/41, sporting rifles and rebuilds to replace firearms withdrawn from Rifle Clubs.
The repair programs were implemented by the Government of the day to reduce the unemployment post war and ease the returning service personnel and factory workers back to a degree of normality, as opposed to the recession post WW1.

This rifle would have become second line, as all active service units were re-equiped with new rifles for the second conflict. Therefore it may have simply done guard or training work until it was earmarked for repair.

Muffer you'll get no argument from me so if using the word refurbished for Cinders rifle and rifles similar to it is incorrect, I'm happy to be corrected. For the record, Ive never seen a rifle repaired or refurbished out of lithgow dated 1948 or 1949. Ive collected many rifles that have been completely overhauled similarly to a those that were FTR'd in the 50's, stamped R over MA over the month/45/46/47 but never 48 or 49. They always appear to be completely refurbished with all parts replaced.

My records show file 245/453/8 1948/57 Orders commercial, 5000 hornet rifles for Slazenger P/L.
245/540/182 1948 Sale of 7000 defective rifles for sporting use.

The condition of the butt does not match the condition of the metal and if it was refinished, someone did a very skillful job of polishing before it was blued. Those edges look awfully crisp, square and original to me, but I claim no expertise on Lithgows. Could it be a barreled action that was set aside or even sold off at some point between the wars and later completed or restocked, in or out of service? Is it a long butt? Looks like it. If so, it might have been used for that reason, instead of one that matched in coachwood. Just looking along the sharp edge at the top of the receiver wall above the boltway in this photo, is that a succession of small dents along the 'sharp' edge? If so, and there's no loss of finish around them, you've probably got a reblue; in service or out I have no idea.

Looks like the flat of the Nock's Form does is out of alignment with the flat on the barrel ring(?)
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....8&d=1385183755

It may be the lighting I will dig her out again and take more pics as all I have is my I-phone so bear with me if I do not get to it straight away as it is a real pr*ck to get to I am glad for the input of you all and am learning allot about the old girls more than what the books can give at this point in time.
I really appreciate the assistance given to this thread as I said not for me to shoot or sell it is for my wife or son to squabble over when I am done with this place, funny how my wife claimed the '16 Lithgow.......?
:dancingbanana:

Have a look from here as there was allot of reflected light from 2 white cars parked close by and a very sunny day as I was under our patio so there may be aberrations that make it look like dimples and misalignment of the re-enforce to the action.

Somehow I lost the Rt action picture so here's the left side of the receiver there are no dimples will try to get a close horizontal for you all.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The condition of the butt does not match the condition of the metal and if it was refinished, someone did a very skillful job of polishing before it was blued. Those edges look awfully crisp, square and original to me, but I claim no expertise on Lithgows. Could it be a barreled action that was set aside or even sold off at some point between the wars and later completed or restocked, in or out of service? Is it a long butt? Looks like it. If so, it might have been used for that reason, instead of one that matched in coachwood. Just looking along the sharp edge at the top of the receiver wall above the boltway in this photo, is that a succession of small dents along the 'sharp' edge? If so, and there's no loss of finish around them, you've probably got a reblue; in service or out I have no idea.

Looks like the flat of the Nock's Form does is out of alignment with the flat on the barrel ring(?)
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....8&d=1385183755

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The butt has been on the rifle from its manufacture in 1921. Very often when forwoods were replaced, the original butts were retained.

Also I think there is no doubt the metal has been refinished.

Overall it looks a very legitimate rifle repaired in 5/44

One last thing if the barrel or action was not requiring any work including the bolt etc then would they have placed an FTR on the receiver to denote it had been done as I have seen on countless pics of these markings through books and web pics.

Could it be that this weapons action was as described to me by the gunny and just the woods were stuffed and needed replacement anyway it is a good talking point mind you I would just love to go through the Enfield pattern room, have you been through there Peter or anyone else for that matter boy I would just love a tour......

Cinders you really need to read my previous post. Lithgow did not FTR rifles until 1950 and only these rifles were stamped FTR on the action. These were stripped to the action and rebuilt into new rifles. Yours is not one of these.

Thanks Homer pretty happy with the replies as whilst it may be a refurb don't really matter the thing is its 95% (fore stocks) I have gauged the barrel and a .301 did not go in the Muzzle so it just lives in the safe gets aired probably 3-4 times a year for a light Tetra oil bore swab, balistol on the ext metals and beeswax stock session then back to the safe does not even see sunlight so it has a good life.

Thanks to all for the replies and info supplied.

i have a question .... what is it about those words "unfired rifle" that gets some collectors all giddy and scrambles the thinking part of the brain of those new to 'military surplus' rifle collecting ?

Most of them are still searching for the Holy Graile, to me that would be a 1912 C marked Lithgow.:rolleyes:

To those who understand the history of these rifles, "unfired" is a huge call. All rifles are proofed during assembly which involves firing an overloaded round.
With regard to MkIII rifles, this quote comes from "Outline of Manufacture and Inspection of the Service Rifle" from the 1909 Textbook of Small Arms.... "All rifles are fired at 100 feet and 10 percent are also fired at 600 yards, any which give doubtful results at the shorter range being included among those being tested at the longer." it goes on to describe the laying of t5he rifle in an Enfield rest and using a telescope for sighting. Test shots are fired and the fore sight blade adjusted laterally or replaced lower or higher as required. 5 rounds are then fired for the group test. The 600yard test involves ten rounds with 9 being inside a 2 foot circle.
Already we have a minimum of about ten rounds per rifle, twenty for rifles also tested at the longer range.

So... how do we determine if a rifle is unfired? Stick some copper solvent in the bore and see if it pulls blue. Yes, even an "unfired" rifle will most likely pull blue, so how do you tell if it had not been fired since it left the factory? Simple answer... you can't. Unless you know the person who bought it when it was sold out of service, and he can prove it was unissued from the factory.

The term "unfired" has been applied too freely. Looking at the logic it is very unlikely that it can be proven, but all too often it is believed by a buyer who is paying a premium for something that cannot be validated...

Never have truer words been spoken Son. If only everyone would take this on board. Every Lee Enfield collector ought to be made to learn your thread by rote!

Only extremely experienced in-inspectors, barrel viewers/examiners can decide and guess what.......... Even they only comment in what we call 'quarters of life'

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Originally Posted by Homer

The butt has been on the rifle from its manufacture in 1921. Very often when forwoods were replaced, the original butts were retained.

Also I think there is no doubt the metal has been refinished.

Overall it looks a very legitimate rifle repaired in 5/44

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I see your point about the butt serial number.

muffett , think we discussed this once before , hope you find that holy grail , i still want a mkVI , and as long as im dreaming a nice HAK , and a no6 to go with it , that's my list and im sticking to it ,

son & peter , those were my points exactly , i do appreciate a collector going for the best quality they can find , its everyone's goal to have excellent , desirable and valuable pieces ,
i kinda like the ones with history more , they are so much more interesting , since the days of the "OLD SITE" to me the most enjoyable threads have been those covering markings as well as oddities , and what we can decipher from them , as well as the interesting personal input of the members regarding the discussed items ,

not that this was not both fun reading and educational , it just crossed my mind to ask about that "unfired" qualification so many spend so much on

Yep, I think "unfired" is over rated.

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Originally Posted by A square 10

muffett , think we discussed this once before , hope you find that holy grail , i still want a mkVI , and as long as im dreaming a nice HAK , and a no6 to go with it , that's my list and im sticking to it ,

son & peter , those were my points exactly , i do appreciate a collector going for the best quality they can find , its everyone's goal to have excellent , desirable and valuable pieces ,
i kinda like the ones with history more , they are so much more interesting , since the days of the "OLD SITE" to me the most enjoyable threads have been those covering markings as well as oddities , and what we can decipher from them , as well as the interesting personal input of the members regarding the discussed items ,

not that this was not both fun reading and educational , it just crossed my mind to ask about that "unfired" qualification so many spend so much on

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I have some Lithgows that are as close to unfired as you can get but they have been proofed greased and stored. They are all XPs and S&Ls the rest have been fired most an awful lot others not so much. One sniper has a Q mark to it dont know all the British No1 Mk3s are well used. Two No4 Mk2s are as close as you can get to NEW RIFLE STATUS. My thoughts are any thing on issue has been fired most alot. There is no such beast as an unfired pre 1918 No1 Mk3 or Mk3* British/Lithgow made they just dont exist. I also doubt that there is such a beast from 1919 to 1945 British even british made No4 Mk1s will have been used. No4 Mk1*s maybe different. There maybe some late Lithgows unissued that did not go to the rifle clubs yet to see one

Anything that went near a Rifle Club, would have seen some serious use..........and several barrels.:)

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

So why has the 07 pattern bayonet followed this rifle like a lost puppy as there are so many out there that are mis-matched to the rifle they may be attached to,

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An interesting point. In the UK (I can't speak for Australia) bayonets are issued separately and so a bayonet numbered to the rifle simply would not happen. (Yes I know about those No.4 Mk.2s but they are the exception to the rule.)

Lithgows were paired with a bayonet with the rifle serial number stamped on it then the MD number was added to it and the rifle . This pratice did cease but i dont have the ref handy.
The transport boxes took 8 rifles and bayonets

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

I have some Lithgows that are as close to unfired as you can get but they have been proofed greased and stored. They are all XPs and S&Ls the rest have been fired most an awful lot others not so much. One sniper has a Q mark to it dont know all the British No1 Mk3s are well used. Two No4 Mk2s are as close as you can get to NEW RIFLE STATUS. My thoughts are any thing on issue has been fired most alot. There is no such beast as an unfired pre 1918 No1 Mk3 or Mk3* British/Lithgow made they just dont exist. I also doubt that there is such a beast from 1919 to 1945 British even british made No4 Mk1s will have been used. No4 Mk1*s maybe different. There maybe some late Lithgows unissued that did not go to the rifle clubs yet to see one

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So when am I visiting again? :lol:

When your job gets you here:beerchug:

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

An interesting point. In the UK (I can't speak for Australia) bayonets are issued separately and so a bayonet numbered to the rifle simply would not happen. (Yes I know about those No.4 Mk.2s but they are the exception to the rule.)

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This probably happened by very good luck.