M1903A3 Purchase, Opinions?

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11-23-2013, 08:04 PM
MilSurpFan

M1903A3 Purchase, Opinions?

Hi All,
I just purchased an 03A3 a the LGS. Not sure whether it was a good decision or not. It's still in Ca. Waiting Period, so no pix. But here's some descriptions and questions. Did I do good or bad? (I know, hard to tell without talking price.)

I've wanted an 03 for a while, but not real versed in them. Prices have kept me away mostly. In this case it's an A3... my second choice really.

1) It's Remington. Serial Number looks like Jan. 44

2) Barrel date is 10-43. I'm assuming that makes sense since it's before the date associated with the serial #? (4,158,xxx)

3) All the parts are marked "R". So that seems good, even though A3's had outsourced parts. At least they are likely to be this rifle's outsourced parts, LOL!

4) Two Groove Rifling. This baffled me somewhat. It has what I'd call two narrow lands... it was more groove than land, or so I thought. My reading seems to say I should have expected the opposite... more land? In any event it was bright and sharp. Hopefully a shooter.

5) The wood has been sanded and refinished. Cartouches are almost unreadable but seem to be "circle P" an FJA, if I recall correctly. Niether I nor the dealer could make out a re-arsenal mark. But it was sanded, so hard to say.

6) The receiver and barrel are parked and slightly green. Most other parts are blued.

So all in all, a good looking rifle. I'm wondering, given the age these rifles. Should I be worried about the sanded stock? I didn't try to use it as leverage to drop the price. Just decided I wanted it and went for it. So, no doubt I over paid.

So... should I have kept looking for a more "correct" version or waited for a plain 03 to cross my path?

My impression is it's getting very hard to find "correct" examples. But not all sure. Also not sure how much better the basic 03 is.

For me it came down to, it seemed to fit me right (first peep sighted rifle that the sights seemed to be in the right place for me) seemed to be in good shape, and I liked it.

But, buying things I "like" has occasionally been a mistake. LOL!

P.S. What sort of markdown do you think the sanded and refinished stock is worth?
11-23-2013, 08:23 PM
Rick the Librarian

Very late Remington M1903A3s are often found in original condition because they received very little (if any) use before being put into storage. A two-groove barrel is correct and as a rule, show little or no accuracy difference from a four groove.

Until a relatively short time ago, inspection markings on a stock were seen as a "liability" and were often sanded off. A correct stock of a rifle of that "vintage" should have an FJA and an RA, as well as the "circled P" you mentioned.

Can I ask what you paid for it?
11-23-2013, 08:26 PM
NRA

well ................. without any pictures and you telling no price it is a waste of time for everyone. a picture is worth a thousand guesses.
11-23-2013, 09:13 PM
MilSurpFan

Not really a waste. Anything I can learn is good stuff.

The main questions really really revolve around few things.

1) How much value loss due to refinishing the stock.

The exact price isn't really important. It's more, "How much of a hit did I accept if I have to sell in the future?"

2) What's typical of there rifles? Are enough around in "correct" shape that I should've waited? (I'm not strictly a collector, but if "correct" examples are more plentiful that I believe... may well have waited. "Correct" beats even a good "Bubba" job, in my book.)

Unfortunately, I can't photo it at the moment. It's got to get through both 30 day wait for private rifle consigned in Ca. and then the 10 wait for me. You know how Ca. is.

I walked into the store to do the paperwork on a different gun, and it just happened to be on the rack. I decided to pony up the $$$ and wait.

I suppose I could take a camera down to the store, but I'd have to buy a portable one. I'm afraid I'm not up to current toys yet, no cell phone with camera for me. :)

Guess I should break down and buy one, but more aggravation and expense than I'd like for something I really don't want (a digital leash, with batteries no less... LOL!)

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

Very late Remington M1903A3s are often found in original condition because they received very little (if any) use before being put into storage. A two-groove barrel is correct and as a rule, show little or no accuracy difference from a four groove.

Until a relatively short time ago, inspection markings on a stock were seen as a "liability" and were often sanded off. A correct stock of a rifle of that "vintage" should have an FJA and an RA, as well as the "circled P" you mentioned.

Can I ask what you paid for it?

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

@Rick The Librarian - Who considered the markings a liability? Was this something civilians were doing?

Geez, I'd have never done that myself. I'm 51, have been shooting since I was a kid. Got away from it for a long time... but can't recall period where I thought... "Geez, I just have to get those stamps off the rifle..."

I dunno, it's sort of like, prying all the Chevy or Ford markings off a muscle car.

Other than the refinish it almost what I'd call pristine. Just some light scratchs on the floor plate.

I paid about $800, which I thought was high. But I really didn't want to go through the BS of the dealer calling the consignee, hangling third hand and all. So I just said, take the money, take off the floor and hold it until the wait periods are over. So I'd say I definitely over paid.

Then again, everything gun related here in SoCal seems over priced. Life in this respect was easier back in the days of cash and carry. And I was in another state altogether.
11-23-2013, 09:51 PM
Dad

1 Attachment(s)

Welcome to the forum!
Considering what good M1903A3s are going for in California (specially in my part of it), I don't think you overpaid if the rifle is as you described.
I paid slightly less for mine, but the original stock was cracked at the tang and had to be replaced. The seller gave me a very nice scant stock and that is what the rifle is wearing now.
I did save the original stock just in case....
Eventually I will try to hunt down a replacement "correct" stock for it.
Mine is an all Remington in the 4064XXX serial number range with a 9-43 two groove barrel.
Here is a pic.
Attachment 47390

D. :cheers:
11-23-2013, 10:11 PM
WarPig1976

When you say refinished,,,, Is it glossy, I mean really glossy?? Please say no!!

Sounds ok except for the stock, I mean it hasn't been sportorized or anything. I think I paid $525 or $575 anyway it was under $600 but mine had a crack wrist which extended halfway threw the butt, a crack on the side @ the receiver ring, bent front and rear sights. I was forced to refinish it after repairs, I did it right and don't give a hoot how much it reduced resale value. This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine......

Relax, sounds like a little buyers remorse, you wanted it, you got, now enjoy it...
11-23-2013, 10:13 PM
MilSurpFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad

Welcome to the forum!
Considering what good M1903A3s are going for in California (specially in my part of it), I don't think you overpaid if the rifle is as you described.
I paid slightly less for mine, but the original stock was cracked at the tang and had to be replaced. The seller gave me a very nice scant stock and that is what the rifle is wearing now.
I did save the original stock just in case....
Eventually I will try to hunt down a replacement "correct" stock for it.
Mine is an all Remington in the 4064XXX serial number range with a 9-43 two groove barrel.
Here is a pic.
Attachment 47390

D. :cheers:

How do you like that scant stock?

Mine is straight, and that's what I really wanted. I like those, but haven't handle a scant stock either.

First time I handled a Savage 110 (really have been a handgun guy most of my life), I change my mind about pistol grips. That said, most of my rifles in the past did have the usual pistol grip. (Traditional pistol grip, not M16 style.)
11-23-2013, 10:23 PM
MilSurpFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarPig1976

When you say refinished,,,, Is it glossy, I mean really glossy?? Please say no!!

Sounds ok except for the stock, I mean it hasn't been sportorized or anything. I think I paid $525 or $575 anyway it was under $600 but mine had a crack wrist which extended halfway threw the butt, a crack on the side @ the receiver ring, bent front and rear sights. I was forced to refinish it after repairs, I did it right and don't give a hoot how much it reduced resale value. This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine......

Relax, sounds like a little buyers remorse, you wanted it, you got, now enjoy it...

So how's your reworked rifle shootin'? Sounds like it took some work to set it straight. Wish I had the space and facilities for that.

Definitely a little buyer's remorse. Still want an M1A or an M1 Garand too, LOL!. Had a Garand years ago, kinda miss it.

No it's not shiny-like-urethane, glasslike refinish. Seems to be some sort of oil. But still thicker than whats on say, my Yugo M48.

I don't think it's like Tru-Oil. I did an Argentine Mauser in that as a kid at the urging of my father, and it was definitely a layer of transparent stuff... not like that at all.

To be honest, I like the imperviousness of finishes like urethane. But that wouldn't be the least big period correct here.

My intent is to clean it well, then give it some raw linseed, like the TM manual for it talks about. And then, I guess it's going to be my well cared for field rifle. I had acquired a stainless M77 a while back, but really wanted one of these.

I have to say, I've come to like the synthetic + stainless thing for it's sheer imperviousness to the elements and it's "scrub-ability" if you will. It's rather like a kitchen utensil in that respect.

But it has all the "ambience" of kitchen utensil too, LOL!

Resale value is a concern like mentioned above... if and only if I had to sell. Hopefully I won't get to place like that. (Have been there in the past, to be sure.) But, as measure of "How dumb was I?"... it's still useful.

The idea was to have a personal #1 rifle in 30-06.

(Though I have to admit, being a bullet caster, I'm beginning to see lots of merit in a Marlin Guide Gun or 1886 Winchester in 45-70.)
11-23-2013, 10:36 PM
Dad

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilSurpFan

How do you like that scant stock?

Mine is straight, and that's what I really wanted. I like those, but haven't handle a scant stock either.

First time I handled a Savage 110 (really have been a handgun guy most of my life), I change my mind about pistol grips. That said, most of my rifles in the past did have the usual pistol grip. (Traditional pistol grip, not M16 style.)

The scant stock, on the rifle, now is actually more comfortable to shoot than the straight stock that is on my M1903.
I did repair the crack on the original straight stock for the '03A3, but I decided to store it for now.

D. :cheers:
11-23-2013, 10:54 PM
WarPig1976

Rifle shoots good..:)

Good at least it's not Bubba Goo on there. I hear ya on the Poly, looks best on sporters.
11-23-2013, 11:43 PM
Salt Flat

I think for a shooter the 03a3 is the right choice. The 03a3 has better sights than the 03 with the peep mounted on the rear bridge of the receiver. I hadn't shot mine for quite awhile and was sort of shocked that I was able to shoot a 2 1/2 inch group at 100 yards. Five shots with one flyer. The surprise was not that the rifle could do it but that my old cataract eyes could even see the target! (surgery soon) Salt Flat
11-24-2013, 01:07 AM
surpman1911

It doesn't sound like you did too bad. I'm more of a collector so when I got my 03 i wanted it to be as original as possible but as long as your not super big on the collecting aspect of it, a refinished stock shouldn't be that big of a deal. Personally, I like the model 1903 better than the 03a3 because you can be a bit more precise with the aiming but it is harder to see the sights. Unfortunately for me, when i got my 03 from the cali 10 day wait period, i found out that the rear sight slide had been bent in shipping because the guy didn't put any paper or bubble wrap in the box. Hopefully I can fix that.
11-24-2013, 02:13 AM
Dad

Quote:

Originally Posted by surpman1911

Unfortunately for me, when i got my 03 from the cali 10 day wait period, i found out that the rear sight slide had been bent in shipping because the guy didn't put any paper or bubble wrap in the box. Hopefully I can fix that.

Just be careful taking the damaged slide apart, the tiny pin that retains the binding knob is easy to loose and the small screw and dovetail sometimes do not like to cooperate during removal/disassembly....

If you need a replacement for your slide, these people have some.

1903 rear sight slide

D. :cheers:
11-24-2013, 09:39 AM
Rick the Librarian

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilSurpFan

Not really a waste. Anything I can learn is good stuff.

The main questions really really revolve around few things.

1) How much value loss due to refinishing the stock.

The exact price isn't really important. It's more, "How much of a hit did I accept if I have to sell in the future?"

2) What's typical of there rifles? Are enough around in "correct" shape that I should've waited? (I'm not strictly a collector, but if "correct" examples are more plentiful that I believe... may well have waited. "Correct" beats even a good "Bubba" job, in my book.)

Unfortunately, I can't photo it at the moment. It's got to get through both 30 day wait for private rifle consigned in Ca. and then the 10 wait for me. You know how Ca. is.

I walked into the store to do the paperwork on a different gun, and it just happened to be on the rack. I decided to pony up the $$$ and wait.

I suppose I could take a camera down to the store, but I'd have to buy a portable one. I'm afraid I'm not up to current toys yet, no cell phone with camera for me. :)

Guess I should break down and buy one, but more aggravation and expense than I'd like for something I really don't want (a digital leash, with batteries no less... LOL!)

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

@Rick The Librarian - Who considered the markings a liability? Was this something civilians were doing?

Geez, I'd have never done that myself. I'm 51, have been shooting since I was a kid. Got away from it for a long time... but can't recall period where I thought... "Geez, I just have to get those stamps off the rifle..."

I dunno, it's sort of like, prying all the Chevy or Ford markings off a muscle car.

Other than the refinish it almost what I'd call pristine. Just some light scratchs on the floor plate.

I paid about $800, which I thought was high. But I really didn't want to go through the BS of the dealer calling the consignee, hangling third hand and all. So I just said, take the money, take off the floor and hold it until the wait periods are over. So I'd say I definitely over paid.

Then again, everything gun related here in SoCal seems over priced. Life in this respect was easier back in the days of cash and carry. And I was in another state altogether.

I'm 64 and trust me, milsurp rifles were not seen as "collectibles" until maybe 30-35 years ago. The markings were seen as a "hindrance" to a nice, smooth stock. I think at $800 you did pretty well.
11-24-2013, 11:46 AM
WarPig1976

8 Attachment(s)

Attachment 47391
February 43' 03A3..

I forgot, the top hand guard was cracked, fixed it from underneath. Bubba had carved his initials,,,,his initials!!, to the left of the ordnance wheel which required heavy sanding to remove. Here's some after photos..
Attachment 47391
Where's the crack?
Attachment 47393
Attachment 47394
Attachment 47395
Attachment 47396
Markings,,,
Attachment 47398
Attachment 47397
FYI, don't use a finishing wax on military stocks!!! it dries off white in every nook and cranny..:(
11-24-2013, 01:49 PM
Salt Flat

Warpig, Nice work on a classic rifle! Salt Flat
11-25-2013, 05:11 AM
MilSurpFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by surpman1911

It doesn't sound like you did too bad. I'm more of a collector so when I got my 03 i wanted it to be as original as possible but as long as your not super big on the collecting aspect of it, a refinished stock shouldn't be that big of a deal. Personally, I like the model 1903 better than the 03a3 because you can be a bit more precise with the aiming but it is harder to see the sights. Unfortunately for me, when i got my 03 from the cali 10 day wait period, i found out that the rear sight slide had been bent in shipping because the guy didn't put any paper or bubble wrap in the box. Hopefully I can fix that.

I would have preferred an 03 with the ladder sight, for sure. I like the milled magazine and floorplate better too. But I've seen maybe 2 of those in original shape, my entire life. (Given 5 million Springfields were made, there's about 100,000 in every state. I'd have thought you'd see them more regularly. No idea how many have been sporter... ahem... Bubba'ed over the years though.)

The dealer actually has one that came in earlier in the year and kept for himself. I really wanted that one.

I'm not collector per se. But I am an "originality freak" to some extent. So the stock is is bugging me. But, I'm not up for a major search either. Since the metal all seemed to be in such good shape, I went with it. It has to shoot, first and foremost. And well, I just prefer the military configuration over sporters. I have M77 in plastic stock and stainless. But still like the old walnut and steel guns. To be honest, if I could get a stainless Springfield (or M1 or M1A), that's what I really want. Of course they didn't make them.

I don't hunt anymore, but it is the standard I judge the gun by. It has have a fair chance of being a shooter before it's of interest at all. So generally the metal is more important to me.

I guess I do have a case of buyer's remorse going.

---------- Post added at 02:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian

I'm 64 and trust me, milsurp rifles were not seen as "collectibles" until maybe 30-35 years ago. The markings were seen as a "hindrance" to a nice, smooth stock. I think at $800 you did pretty well.

That's interesting. My first Milsurp was an AC41 P-38. And it was amazingly preserved, matching numbers, no import stamp, etc. After that an M1 and M1 Carbine. But that was back in the 80's. The idea of rubbing out the markings never occurred to me. Wish I still had those 3 guns. The carbine was from the first run of Winchesters. But it had an M-2 stock on it from somewhere. But it was a nice chunk of wood, either way.

I've read a lot of old gunsmithing books family had around when I was a kid. Definitely the older books all had sections about sporterizing milsurps. My father picked up an Argentine Mauser in the 70's when I was kid. I remember really hating that he chopped the stock up into a sporter configuration. Hated it like that, LOL! I thought was perfect the way it was. I like full wood stocks, as long as it isn't messing the accuracy up.

Guess I still feel that way. Have an M77 in stainless and synthetic stock. While it's a great gun... I look at the whippy lightwieght barrel and think at times... "What a prissy rifle." It does handle nicely, etc. though. It meets it's design goals I guess.

---------- Post added at 02:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Attachment 47391
February 43' 03A3..

I forgot, the top hand guard was cracked, fixed it from underneath. Bubba had carved his initials,,,,his initials!!, to the left of the ordnance wheel which required heavy sanding to remove. Here's some after photos..
Attachment 47391
Where's the crack?
Attachment 47393
Attachment 47394
Attachment 47395
Attachment 47396
Markings,,,
Attachment 47398
Attachment 47397
FYI, don't use a finishing wax on military stocks!!! it dries off white in every nook and cranny..:(

Wow, that was nice piece of wood. Shame it had problems. Nice color and grain. I'm green, for sure. That's righteous.

I don't know if it's true, but they say, "Bubba always finds the good ones..."
11-25-2013, 08:34 AM
Rick the Librarian

M1903A3 stocks aren't that hard to find, although not as easy (or as cheap!) as they were a few years ago. If you want to use it as/is, nothing wrong with that. Just sort of keep your eye out for a better stock and it'll eventually turn up. The nice thing is, that once the new stock turns up, you can sell the old one to partially pay for the new one.
11-25-2013, 11:20 AM
Fred G.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilSurpFan

I would have preferred an 03 with the ladder sight, for sure. I like the milled magazine and floorplate better too. But I've seen maybe 2 of those in original shape, my entire life. (Given 5 million Springfields were made, there's about 100,000 in every state. I'd have thought you'd see them more regularly. No idea how many have been sporter... ahem... Bubba'ed over the years though.)

My first 03 was a Smith Corona that I bought back in 1975 for $150.00 at a little gun store. It was in super condition and I'd heard my grandfather sing praises about the 1903 Springfield's that he'd used in WWI. I didn't know the difference between a classic WWI 1903 Springfield and a 1903A3 back then as I was just 20 years old. I bought the rifle and proudly took it to show my granpa at his home. "Here's the type of 1903 Springfield that you used in WWI granpa" I said. I was shocked and disappointed when upon seeing it, he exclaimed "The hell it is!" That's when I started doing my research and found out about my mistake. I soon sold that rifle with its stamped sheet metal parts and eventually located an early 1909 made one with the serial number of 362000. I kept it for years before I finally sold it back in the 1980's at a gun show. It was all correct of course and of course I shot it, not knowing much about the single heat treated receivers back then. For all of their value as unaltered collectables in todays market, I've just never acquired an appreciation for 1903A3's. I just don't like them. I've even passed up one that a guy wanted to sell me really cheap years ago that had an engraved presentation plate of silver in the butt stock of it as a prize to somebody who'd won a competition in a shooting match. I see a lot of guys getting excited over 03A3's who wouldn't even think of purchasing a 1903 with milled parts and I just scratch my head. Most claim that they don't like the 1903 sights or claim that they can't or don't know how to use them. I can't figure that out because although the peep sight (whichever size is on the slide) is smaller, it tends to result in a tighter group for the shooter. Of course there are shooters whose eye sight it so out of wack that they just can't use such a small sight. I myself need to use my glasses using such a peep sight because without them, I see an overlapped double image of the peep with either eye. The glasses allow me to see a single slightly fuzzy opening that has a clear and sharp front sight blade centered on a sharp target. Using the 03A3 rear peep sight, I noticed that the peep was so big, it allowed for a greater amount of error in centering the front sight. I could get a 2 1/4" group with one at 100 yards, but nothing like the groups that I could get with a vintage 1903 Springfield's sights. Of course some rifles have a unique ability to group successive rounds in a tight pattern. Some hold tight groups and some simply will not. Some shooters love their 1903A3's because they can get fantastic scores with them. I think that's really neat and it says a lot about the shooters skill and discipline. The 1903A3's, in their 1903A4 configuration, are really accurate rifles I've read. But what rifle properly scoped isn't? Nope, I personally prefer the classic 1903 with it's stronger milled steel parts whose trigger guards won't break like an 03A3's spot welded trigger guard can. If I ever bought a 1903A3, and I might one day, I'd take off all of the stamped sheet metal parts and replace them with milled parts. Now that would make for an interesting and well made rifle!
11-27-2013, 12:12 AM
MilSurpFan

@Fred G. - I hear that. I prefer the all milled 03 and the ladder sight myself. At one time I had an M1 Garand, Carbine and Mini-14... I grew up shooting Patridge sights, so I never feel like I'm "indexed" with a peep sight.

But, looking for a great 03, in the right serial number ranges, etc.... well someday, if another crosses my path. The last one that did, the dealer kept it for himself, LOL!