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That very, very rare WW1 Parker Hale Sniper No53 scope with PH mounts is back on 'that site' A bargain at £350
vintage ww1 Parker hale sniper scope with parker hale mounts | eBay
Unless he has a stock of them the buyer must have found out he was conned and returned it
Alan de E: There is a Periscopic Prism scope up for grabs as well as two No. 32's (on e-bay). I was hoping someone would comment on the PP. I'm unsure how to attach a link to this- just do a search for "WW1 sniper" on e-bay.
Ridolpho
WW1 Sniper Scope Periscopic Prism Company London Very RARE Scope British | eBay
Ridolpho- the point of my post was that this item has been listed before, and again is being wrongly described :
1) It is not manufactured by Parker Hale
2) Parker Hale did not even exist during WW1
3) The No53 scope is a WW2 item and not a WW1 item
Last time it was listed I mailed the seller (as I believe several others here did also) and informed him that his description was incorrect but I received no reply.
Some poor 'newbie' trying to get into Enfields will be convinced he has a bargain scope to put onto his No4 rifle
Alan: Yes, I understand. I mentioned the others as the PP is what WW1 scopes really look like and the relationship of the scope in question to the WW2 vintage No. 32's is self evident which may be of help to newcomers.
Ridolpho
I got a reply but, apparently, I don't know what I am talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
I told him that it was from a Churchill Mk7 gun tank and was told that I was talking pure horse manure. That they didn't have Churchills in WW1! Well, you can't win them all I suppose
Alan,
Having just finished an article about Parker Hale Limited, and so I can confirm that they began manufacturing high quality precision shooting accessories in the heart of the gun-making quarter of Birmingham in the year 1880. The founder of course was Alfred Gray Parker.
So they were established before WW1 and by the time the war arrived had a great deal of credibility.
However, I still wouldn't buy that sight for reasons that have been covered enough times on this site;)
As Parker-Hale? I always thought that although Hale joined the company prior to the Great War, the name change to Parker-Hale did not happen until sometime between the wars. Or is that incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil9713
As written............. Parker Hale founded officially in 1880.
It was 1914 whilst the company had enjoyed recognition within the Gun Quarter of Birmingham and became a recognised player in firearms and munitions, that the company's small manufacturing base received orders from the Ministry of Munitions for training rifles and aids to improve the riflemans skills.
I cover this in more detail in my article about the M85 v the L96 Army contract and why the M85 lost out in 1985 which I will hopefully place on the site soon with agreement of the headshed on Milsurps. I have included in that article how the British Army got to where it was as 1900 arrived.
The Parker Hale rifling manufacturing processes, coupled with the Hiscock-Parker magazine, enabled existing service rifles to be easily converted to .22 calibre for teaching recruits to shoot correctly, a weakness spotted by senior ranks in the Army at the time.
Hope that helps
Not really. I am still confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil9713
Are you saying that the company was founded in 1880 AS Parker-Hale and NOT AG Parker, which is what I have thought to be the case for many years.
The point being of course that if the company did not change its name to Parker-Hale until sometime between the wars, then any equipment manufactured prior to that would be marked "AGP" or "AG Parker".
Some references may help with my confusion.
At the end of the 1800's, Alfred Gray Parker is listed with an address at 69 ickneild street and by 1910,their logo has altered to A G Parker & co ltd , at 264 ickneild st.
In 1915 the fim has moved to 61/2 Whittall St where they have added GUN IMPLEMENTS to their range and by 1920,additional premises have been found and the address becomes BISLEY WORKS Whittall st. By 1935 the firm can no longer be found under the entries for GUN ,RIFLE and PISTOL MAKERS; they are now classed as GUN IMPLEMENT MAKERS and have acquired more premises in Price St.
A G Parker,the founder ,was a keen rifleman with an inventive turn of mind. He invited his nephew A T C PARKER to join the firm, which continued to prosper,becoming a limited company in 1904.
MR HALE was responsible for the introduction of 'PARKERIFLING' which saw use as an inexpensive way of converting .303 calibre rifles to .22 rinfire for troop training during the first world war.The process of re ligning small calibre barrels was further developed to provide target rifle accuracy.
The founder of the firm died in 1915 and in 1925 MR ATC HALES second son,arthur,joined the firm.
By the 1920s A G PARKER& CO could furnish a range of fullbore 303 target rifles based on the LEE ENFIELD and a variety of aperture sights (rear).some of which were built under licence from BSA and others which were developed by the firm itself.The shotguns on offer were the BSA range,the WEBLEY AND SCOTT double and single and the singal barrel VICKERS VANGUARD.
In 1928 the firm was given a boost by the victory of A C HALE in the BISLEY MEETING. This followed a family record set up in 1926 when three members of the HALE family all reached the KINGS HUNDRED at BISLEY.
The role played by the HALE family in the fortunes of the firm was acknowledged in 1936 by a change of name to PARKER HALE LTD
It seems as if we have differing sources of information.
I will have to dig out the book by 'Ma Parker' to get the rest.
Probably best described and saves my finger tips by reading the attached link which does have some discrepancies but very close to the truth as to where it started and where it ended:
Parker Hale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia is only as good as the information placed on it - there was even an example on Wikipedia which stated that all Enfields in 303 were withdrawn from use due to craze-cracking.
You, I or Fred Smith can write and submit anyhing to wikipedia andit will be 'posted' as it is supplied. If Wikipedia is your source then I would rather go with the Parker family history.
Just did a quick site search and found lots of old threads ...
As an example..
Alfred J Parker Ltd
There's also an MKL entry ..
Milsurps Knowledge Library - A.J. Parker Parker Hale Sights
Extract ..
Regards,Quote:
For anyone interested in gaining a better understanding of the evolution of A.J. Parker/Parker Hale micrometer sights, I'd recommending locating this rare and interesting book called A Century of Sights and Sighting Aids by Edna Rosalind Parker. She is the daughter of Alfred J. Parker (founder of Alfred J. Parker Ltd.) and granddaughter of A.G. Parker (founder of Parker hale Ltd.). With her knowledge of the business and access to all of the various historical documents and pictures of the various sights, this little book makes for a very through and accurate reference piece on the subject. There is no ISBN number for it, so I'd suggest you use a "Google" search on the title to see if you can find a copy from one of the rare used book sources on the Internet. I found my copy on a table at a local gun show.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG
Doug
I think that you have confirmed what I have always thought to be the case Alan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
My info was mostly based on that provided by ex employees at the Parker Hale factory up until it closed and they were laid off.
From my research actual dates have always been illusive to confirm exactly, when they started with a programme or otherwise, as their memories fade with old age.
Thanks Alan another source worth asking them about, to see if it rekindles anything!!
So in short did the telescope have any bearing on PH?
No - it was not manufactured by PH but it does appear to have PH rings on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil9713
Ha Ha it gets better by the day
I've never come across any official documented evidence, which I suppose isn't surprising, but it is believed that the No42 and 53 scopes that are seen in Parker Hale rings are those that at one time where issued to the "Auxiliary Units" on .22rf silenced weapons.
I've seen pictures of said weapons in the past and if memory serves I think Roger Payne may have some info regarding them, but I could be wrong on that score.
Below info reproduced from Guns used by the Auxiliary Units
"One sinister weapon which was given to the members of the Auxiliary Unit patrols was a special .22 rifle - usually manufactured by BSA, Winchester or Remington. A report by Duncan Sandys to the Prime Minister in August 1940, confirmed that sniping would be in the Auxiliary Units' remit. This rifle, which was fitted with a powerful telescopic sight and a silencer, could either fire high-velocity bullets for additional lethality at extended ranges or subsonic bullets for virtual silence if the target was relatively close. The Resistance men who received these weapons were told that they were for sniping at German officers and for picking off tracker dogs before they came too near, but several members of the Resistance have admitted that they were also intended to be used on British people in their areas who they thought might collaborate with the Germans. More recently, it is thought that this rifle was to be used for the assassination of Britons that might have proved to be "loose tongued" under interrogation or know too much about who was in each Auxiliary Unit, such as the Chief Constable. The snipers' .22 rifle became Auxiliary Unit standard issue. In some instances it would be the only firearm carried on patrol because it was the only one that could be fired with a chance of continuing the mission afterwards".
Cheers,
Simon.
Not a lot actually Simon. I think the subject of the equipment used by the auxiliaries is an issue that has captured Valley Sniper's interest.............go on give us chapter & verse Valley!
One thing I would mention though is that I'm pretty sure most No42 scopes I've seen in PH rings were the handiwork of Bubba's British cousin, rather than genuine issue to auxiliary units......at least judging by the number I've seen over the years (No32's in PH mounts as well). I think many cost-conscious shooters probably saw an ex-Govt No42 (or 53 or 32) & a set of PH rings as cheap way to set up a scoped rabbiting rifle. AFAIK there were no special markings applied to the auxiliary units' equipment though, so we'll probably never know for sure one way or the other. At least our vendor didn't describe it as 'auxiliary unit issue sniper scope'!!
ATB
Thanks guys interesting analysis of the the PH rings used.
Most of the time, the answer as Roger has stated, is they have taken the easy option rather than any complicated testing or comparisons trialled specifically to fit the scope
Alfred Gray Parker was indeed the founder of the Company, born 1842 died 1915, his son A.G. Parker ran the company until his death in 1939.
A.T.C Hale was A.G Jnrs nephew who joined the company in 1900, was mainly involved in the Administration of the company......the money man and steered the business into becoming a limited liability company in 1904. H became a co director and subsequently managing director at the death of Alfred Gray Parker.
He was instrumental in developing the Parker rifleing system after working with the morris tube system.
A.G Jnr.'s son, A.J. Parker was the one mainly involved in sight design, Arthur Edward Parker was the Works Manager and with A.G.P and A.J.P and the assistance of A.TC. Hale, ran a very successful business.
As the Hales infiltrated the company management positions, A.J found it hard to come to terms with his designs being registered to A.T.C as managing director, being still unable to return to the company until the end of the war, A.T.C managed to ensure all patents were in his name from 1917.
By 1928, young Alfred had had enough, with the influx of three more Hales,and a violent disagreement with his father and A.T.C Hale over his No. 5 sight, he left the company and commenced his own business, flooding the market with a rash of sights from the Twin Zero Folder to the TZ range of sights. The patents dispute waged by Alfred jnr. ensured that A.G Parker and ParkerHale from 1936,were unable to list his sight designs until several years later, when the dispute was finally settled.
A.C.Hale tookover the sight design role and both he and A.J.Parker went *** for tat until A.J won more large contracts, forcing a reconciliation,after 1945 both Companies catalogues covered the sights and components of each other.
A.J. Parkers daughter, Edna, does not air the families dirty laundry in her book, but the old girl could turn a pretty phrase when talking about the Hales, no love lost there.
In his 1977 book, Operation Sealion, Richard Cox arms his Auxilliary that kills the Deputy Reich Protector with a rifle in .22 Hornet.
Cox's novel was well researched and was in fact based on a War Game played in 1974 between RMA Sandhurst and the Staff College Camberley. Observers at the game were of the calibre of Adolf Galland. (Obviously he was there to deal with aspects of the Luftwaffe at the time.) So I am inclined to get along with .22 Hornet as the calibre of at least one Auxiliary's sniper rifle.
BTW, the book is recommended as a good read too.
BTW2 - we won!
Muffet thanks for that. Yet another spin on the family story. I didn't want to get into the fineries of the Hales v the Parkers, so am not concentrating too much on it, but dates and the time lines and who sold what to who, and who now has the rights over the name, make my head spin.
So much good stuff though still kicking around tried and tested and crying out for the whole brand to be resurrected.;)
No need. The brand still exists. It was bought by John Rothery. John Rothery WholesaleQuote:
Originally Posted by Gil9713
I have been told by ex employees he only bought the name and can only supply the oils and ancillaries, is that not correct either?
Parker Hale started to decline with the introduction of the pistol ban in the mid 90s, people were being made redundant or just left.
In 1998 the firm was bought by a bit of a 'know all' named david cockayne who traded as Bremmer Arms/Modular Industries who made springfield rifles (new rifles made from spares) ,he started trading under Bremmer arms at the game fairs but no one had heard of Bremmer Arms, so they started to remake the cadet rifle the L81A2,and also started to develop new machine pistols and sniper rifles, he spent huge amounts on research and developement but wouldn,t listen to 'expert advice' from his highly skilled workforce , he did it his way and no one elses.
In 2000 the official receiver was bought in, with just 6 people left to wind it down.
A firm called ROTHERYS own the rights to manufacture PARKER HALE accessories such as cleaning rod ,oils swabs ,jags and brushes.
Although the firm was bought by gibbs rifles it was actually by its owner Val Forgett who trades under the name of NAVY ARMS, they tried to introduce the midland rifle back over here that was manufactured in the USA , out of 70 of the first batch, 60 of the rifles FAILED OUR STRINGENT PROOF REGULATIONS
Forgive but that is what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil9713
Big sigh...................... The No42 and 53 weren't even in the throes - or even nearly in the throes - of being manufactured when the Aux Units and their .22" rifles were being formed up in the early 40';s! And how would they zero them?And at what range? And what happens to a juicy target (such as a guard dog or dopey dog handler JUST outside th zeroed-in range? Too many questions. I suspect yet ANOTHER urban myth perpetuated by those wishing to sell them after '......my grandad told me.....' or '....I read it in a book....' As a matter of interest, the IWM accept this now following discussions at W/minster re this and other Sten related matters
Once again, just my 'bleedin obvious' take on things
Peter, the timeline is something that had also occurred to me; but I must admit I don't know the precise date of the appearance of the No42; ie how long after the No32 Mk1 it arrived. I had just presumed up till now that they had been allocated to the auxiliaries circa late 1941 or '42 when we were still concerned about the possibility of invasion, but in reality the chances of it occurring had largely passed. When did the No42 go into production (the No53 must have been way too late, of course)?
ATB
I'll second that Rog, i'd be interested to know introduction / manufacture dates too.
Re the No53 I've got copies of DDE manufacturing final approval drawings dated early 44 for the installation of the 53 on both the P14 and No4(T). Now there's an interesting mount to reproduce!
Cheers,
Simon.
BTW Not sure how elevation would be catered for in those PH mounts but the windage was a simple matter of opposing screws.
Good Q DRP. I don't know exactly when the No42/53's were introduced - unless someone wants to trawl through the VAOS V5/ LoC's BUT there is no mention of them before the introduction of the Mk7 and 8 Churchill gun tanks although someone told me that they were fitted as a BESA sighting scope for the Churchill bridgelayers too. This would go some way to explaining why they featured in the Ordnance VAOS lists and indeed, the EMER's until the mid 60's. (When the last of the Churchill AVRE's, Bridgelayers and ARK's? were scrapped).
No mention of them being used on grandpa's BSA supersport though!